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ADAM KEMP

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The Nature of Science - Why Gravity is "Just a Theory"

Tue Jan 9, 2007 9:24 PM EST
science, religion, evolution, gravity, inductive-logic, inductive-reasoning
By Adam Kemp

Photo by Glenn\'s GISuser.com Map, Mash-up & GIS PhotoBlog (GISuser.com). (License: Creative Commons Attribution)

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In the debate between religion and science a common argument is that the theory of evolution, or the Big Bang theory, or some other scientific theory is "just a theory". "It hasn't been proved!", they argue. "That means my theory is just as valid."

This argument shows a very common misconception about science that needs to be cleared up. Science never proves anything. Ever. Let me repeat that with different emphasis: Science never proves anything.

For instance, gravity is "just a theory". Like evolution it cannot be proved correct. I pointed this out in a debate recently, and my opponent attempted to mock the example. He, like most people who make these arguments, did not understand how science works or its limitations.

Science is based on inductive reasoning, which is a method of drawing generalized conclusions based on finite observations. Inductive reasoning can be used to disprove a theory, but it cannot be used to prove one. for example, take the following observation:

  • The grass outside my window is green.

Using inductive reasoning I can conclude:

  • All grass is green.

This conclusion is valid in inductive reasoning so long as all observations support it. As soon as an observation contradicts the conclusion, the conclusion is proved false. However, the only way to prove theory is true would be to observe all grass. This limitation is due to the fact that a conclusion is being drawn from a subset of possible observations.

Since science, by its very nature, attempts to draw conclusions from observations of the natural world inductive reasoning is necessary. In science, though, it is literally impossible to make every possible observation to prove a rule. Therefore, it is also impossible to prove any theory in science. Every conclusion science has ever made is an unproved theory, including gravity.

Still not convinced? Consider the theory itself (in a Newtonian sense for simplicity): all mass is attracted to all other mass in a manner which fits a specific equation (F = G*m1*m2/d^2).

How would we test this? We can try dropping objects with various masses, measuring their acceleration, and then use the above equation (along with Earth's mass for the second object) to verify. If the math works out then the theory is supported. Up until Einstein (maybe even up until now, but I'm not sure) this always worked. However, the only way to prove that the equation is right would be to test every object in the Universe against every other object in the Universe. This is (essentially) an infinite number of observations, which can't be done.

Some might argue that this only applies to the equation itself, but not the fact that gravity occurs. They would say "I can prove gravity by dropping something". However, they are wrong. The only thing you can prove by dropping something is that gravity worked for that test. The only thing they're changing in their test versus the test I described above is loosening the requirements for success: instead of requiring that the equation fit the observation, they are checking that the acceleration is positive (F > 0). The reasoning being used to prove the theory hasn't changed. It's still inductive, and you would still have to make an essentially infinite number of observations in order to prove that gravity works in that way every time.

Some people find this unsettling. If nothing can be proved then how can we know anything? What good is science? The problem is that people are wanting more from science than we actually need. We don't need to know that gravity always works. We just need to be confident that it works under given circumstances. After enough successful tests a theory may be considered a fact in practicality, even when it is not technically proved correct.

Science is not about proving things. It never has been, and it never will be. Instead, science is about observing the Universe around us and using those observations to try to understand how the Universe works. This understanding is always subject to change no matter how confident we are.

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praetor605

An excellent summation of an issue that causes so much confusion. Articles like this (and indeed users such as yourself) are what keep me coming back to newsvine.

  • 25 votes
#1 - Tue Jan 9, 2007 10:12 PM EST
redacted-

In science, though, it is literally impossible to make every possible observation to prove a rule. Therefore, it is also impossible to prove any theory in science.

The beginning of your statement is correct but falters at the end. Ask yourself what science produces. Science produces facts in the form of indisputable observations. Undisputed facts serve as proof in determining the most logical outcome. So while that might not be "proof positive", it nonetheless is proof lacking any other explanation as confirmed by observation.

  • 1 vote
#1.1 - Sun Jun 8, 2008 3:17 PM EDT
Adam Kemp

It is not proof in that any future observation can contradict all past observations. If we test gravity tomorrow and find that objects float instead of fall then gravity as we know it is disproved. Then we have to figure out what changed and adjust the theory accordingly.

Of course that's extremely unlikely given the huge number of observations we've made so far, but the fact remains that a finite number of observations cannot prove a theory through induction. They can only support a theory, but they can never prove it. There is always a possibility of an unexpected observation contradicting all past observations and therefore contradicting the theory.

  • 5 votes
#1.2 - Mon Jun 9, 2008 12:31 AM EDT
redacted-

For instance, gravity is "just a theory". Like evolution it cannot be proved correct.

Theories are proved and disproved all the time. What science does is prove theories based on a set of observations. And disproves theories when the observations change.

Both are acceptable terms in the Scientific community. "Proven beyond any doubt" is perhaps a more appropriate phrase.

    #1.3 - Mon Jun 9, 2008 1:19 PM EDT
    Jack Huang

    Theories are proved and disproved all the time.

    Wrong. Theories are often disproved, but general theories are impossible to prove through observation.

    Give us a couple theories you think are "proven."

    What science does is prove theories based on a set of observations.

    No, observations can support a sound theory, but they never prove one.

    "Proven beyond any doubt" is perhaps a more appropriate phrase.

    Not particulary, and it's one that is never used in any formal sense. There is always doubt in science. That is the nature of the beast.

    • 6 votes
    #1.4 - Mon Jun 9, 2008 4:08 PM EDT
    Issywise

    There are two parts to science: observation of nature and inferences drawn therefrom. The latter is always conditional, subject to revision based on future observations. There is no certainty to be found in science: in fact, certainty is the death of science--it closes open minds.

    • 4 votes
    #1.5 - Mon Jun 9, 2008 4:48 PM EDT
    Adam Kemp

    Bill, this entire article talks about why you're wrong. Did you even read it?

    • 3 votes
    #1.6 - Mon Jun 9, 2008 9:28 PM EDT
    redacted-

    I'm dealing with a group of neanderthals here.

    Einstein's theory of relativity "proven" with the lead of a pencil;

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/11/051110090022.htm

    Lostpedia Theory Policy here;

    http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Theory_policy

    "Some scientific theories include the theory of evolution, the theory of relativity, the atomic theory, and the quantum theory. All of these theories are well documented and proved beyond reasonable doubt.";

    http://wilstar.com/theories.htm

    Essays about theories proven;

    http://www.megaessays.com/essay_search/theories_proven.html

    Also, read Websters dictionary.

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/proven

      #1.7 - Mon Jun 9, 2008 10:59 PM EDT
      Jack Huang

      From your graphene article:

      Scientists at The University of Manchester have discovered a new way to test Einstein's theory of relativity using the 'lead' of a pencil... Until now it was only possible to test the theory by building expensive machinery or by studying stars in distant galaxies, but a team of British, Russian and Dutch scientists has now proven it can be done in the lab using an ultra-thin material called Graphene... our work shows that it is possible to set up direct experiments to test relativistic ideas.

      The title is sensationalistic and ambiguous, and you would've realized that with just a cursory perusal of the article itself.

      Lostpedia: Seriously? Your support for calling us neanderthals when talking about real science is Wikipedia for the Lost television series? I'd laugh if you didn't seem completely serious.

      Wilstar: "The law of gravity is expressed as a single mathematical expression and is presumed to be true all over the universe and all through time."

      "All of these theories are well documented and proved beyond reasonable doubt."
      Sorry, but your source oversimplifies things, which would be acceptable for teaching fourth grades, but hardly a detailed exposition of scientific theories. however, take care to read through it's "black swan theory" example, particularly this section: "Note, however, that although the prediction is useful, the theory does not absolutely prove that the next swan I see will be white. Thus it is said to be falsifiable. If anyone ever saw a black swan, the theory would have to be tweaked or thrown out."

      MegaEssays: One of the essays in your list is about crop circles. I rest my case. If you could point to a particular essay written by a non-amateur which claims a theory proven, I'd like to see it.

      M-W: I assume you wish to refer to "prove a theorem". Take care to note that "theorem" and "theory" are, in fact, different words.

      (all emphasis mine)

      In light of all that, your opening jab reminds me of the joke where an old lady calls her husband, who's driving home from work, to warn him of a car driving the wrong way on the freeway, to which the husband replies "It's not just one, it's all of them!" ;-)

      • 5 votes
      #1.8 - Mon Jun 9, 2008 11:39 PM EDT
      redacted-

      Jack,

      Will String Theory ever be Proven? Not according to you. The best it can ever be is "tested". How ridiculous is that? Why don't you tell the folks at earthsky that it will NEVER be proven.

      http://www.earthsky.org/radioshows/52506/will-string-theory-be-proven

      Testing a theory either proves it, or disproves it.

      "In light of all that, your opening jab reminds me of the joke where an old lady calls her husband, who's driving home from work, to warn him of a car driving the wrong way on the freeway, to which the husband replies "It's not just one, it's all of them!" ;-)"

      In Science it always starts with "one" to convince the masses they are going in the wrong direction. But you should know that. : =)

        #1.9 - Mon Jun 9, 2008 11:58 PM EDT
        Adam Kemp

        Bill, you obviously don't know what the word "proven" means. Until you learn what that means I can't have a reasonable discussion with you.

        Testing a theory either proves it, or disproves it.

        Wrong

        Read the damn article or stop posting. This entire thing is explained very clearly in the article. I explain in detail exactly why it is impossible to "prove" a theory true. The fact that other people get it wrong also doesn't change the fact that it is wrong. Read the article.

        • 3 votes
        #1.10 - Tue Jun 10, 2008 12:06 AM EDT
        redacted-

        Note, however, that although the prediction is useful, the theory does not absolutely prove that the next swan I see will be white. Thus it is said to be falsifiable. If anyone ever saw a black swan, the theory would have to be tweaked or thrown out."

        That is a correct statement. When the observation changes, or logically predicts a different outcome, it debunks the theory. Disproves it.

        • 1 vote
        #1.11 - Tue Jun 10, 2008 12:07 AM EDT
        redacted-

        Adam blows up in true form; "Read the damn article or stop posting."

        Instead of blowing up at me, try blowing up at all the online sources that post "proven" theories.
        And I will stop posting on all of Adams seeds and stories.

        • 1 vote
        #1.12 - Tue Jun 10, 2008 12:08 AM EDT
        Jack Huang

        In Science it always starts with "one" to convince the masses they are going in the wrong direction. But you should know that.

        Yes, except that in science, that "one" isn't the village idiot, no matter how many times he drones about his pompous contrarianism.

        Will String Theory ever be Proven? Not according to you. The best it can ever be is "tested". How ridiculous is that? Why don't you tell the folks at earthsky that it will NEVER be proven.

        How pathetic. Show me where the article ever suggests that string theory will or can be proven. If you bothered to read your own link, you'd see that Greene goes on and on about testability, but never once mentions any form of the word "proof."

        Simply posing a rhetorical question (answer being "no") is hardly evidence of provability. Even you should be able to realize that.

        What's ridiculous is your arrogance in ignorance, presuming to dictate science when you can't even be bothered to read your own sources beyond their titles. Adam was too gracious to you. He should've said "Read any damn article."

        When the observation changes, or logically predicts a different outcome, it debunks the theory. Disproves it.

        This does not mean that the opposite is true: that every observation which supports a theory proves it. This is what you're fundamentally missing, or willfully disregarding.

        The theory can be disproved, but it does not absolutely prove anything, nor is it absolutely proven.

        Proof is final, just like disproof. That is why a scientific theory is never proven.

        Adam blows up in true form; "Read the damn article or stop posting."

        Awww, cute. Composure is difficult when dogged idiocy ignores cogent explanations for the umpteenth time.

        Instead of blowing up at me, try blowing up at all the online sources that post "proven" theories.

        You're the one talking, though -- stubborn enough in your ignorance to believe yourself the purveyor of scientific gospel while referencing, of all things, Lostpedia (sorry, that's just too funny).

        • 4 votes
        #1.13 - Tue Jun 10, 2008 1:04 AM EDT
        Adam Kemp

        Bill, in case it wasn't clear, the reason I wrote this article is that I was tired of people getting this wrong. That is, I know that a lot of people misuse the word "proof" when talking about science, especially in popular media (as opposed to scientific papers). You can link to 1000 websites that get the same thing wrong and that will only reinforce the reason I wrote this article to begin with.

        Either start talking about the content of this article and what you think I got wrong or just give up. Linking to other people who are equally confused isn't doing you any good. The article makes a clear case explaining how science actually works and lays out a clear demonstration of the problem of "proving" a theory true. If you disagree then tell me how you would overcome the problems I discussed in the article. Tell me how you would prove that gravity will always work. Not proof "beyond a reasonable doubt", but logical proof (which is final and absolute).

        • 2 votes
        #1.14 - Tue Jun 10, 2008 1:25 AM EDT
        tedgarcia

        Adam Kemp

        Define theory and define fact, then we could talk.

        Just because you wrote this article don't mean you are right.  And I 'll prove you wrong after you post you definitions.

          #1.15 - Thu Jan 8, 2009 8:44 PM EST
          tedgarcia

          Adam Kemp

          What? Like Evolution,  Garvity cannot be proven correct?

          Okay, suppose I tell you stand infront of a 10-story building. I'll go on the tenth floor and I'll drop a pound of lead directly above you.  What do you think will happen? You got your head busted and you would still maintain that gravity cannot be proven?

            #1.16 - Thu Jan 8, 2009 9:00 PM EST
            Adam Kemp

            I am defining theory the way that scientists define theory. Here is a good explanation:

            In science, the word theory is used as a plausible general principle or body of principles offered to explain a phenomenon.[4]. For example, it is a fact that an apple dropped on earth has been observed to fall towards the center of the planet but we invoke theories of gravity to explain this occurrence. (Wikipedia)

            What I wrote in this article is, plain and simple, how science works. In scientific terms, gravity is a "theory".

            What do you think will happen? You got your head busted and you would still maintain that gravity cannot be proven?

            I'm not saying I reject the theory. Just because I can acknowledge that it is a theory doesn't mean I don't think it's valid. That's exactly the issue. Creationists want to label evolution a "theory" as if that somehow invalidates it, but the truth is that a "theory" is an accepted explanation, not a mere guess. In order to go from "hypothesis" to "theory" you have to have quite a bit of evidence. Gravity and evolution both have a tremendous amount of evidence in their favor, thus they are accepted scientific theories.

            • 2 votes
            #1.17 - Thu Jan 8, 2009 11:16 PM EST
            tedgarcia

            Adam Kemp said, " It is not proof in that any future observation can contradict all past observations. If we test gravity tomorrow and find that objects float instead of fall then gravity as we know it is disproved. Then we have to figure out what changed and adjust the theory accordingly. >>>>

            Your statement above is outragiously and preposterous. If tomorrow objects start floating, do you think we will be here banging on our keyboards and telling you and mr.hung that you are right. Get real, will ya?  

            Of course, evolution is a theory, because it is based on limited knowledge and information and it's occurrence is not observable like gravity.  Who accepts the theory of evolution? Non-believers. But you know what? Non-believers don't realize that in order for evolution to take place there must be a matter and natural elements .  Can anyone in  here speculate on the origin of these matter and elements?  Genesis, Creation come to mind.  How else could such things come into existence? There must be a Creator of all these things.    

            I said in my other post, in the days of Issac Newton, 17th century, gravity was  just a theory.  Since gravity had been proven invariably through observation, now it is "Law of Gravity", and thus gravity is a fact, not a theory anymore.    Evolution, unlike gravity, cannot be proven invariably through observation. We could only speculate on what has happened  and thus, evolution is a theory, not a fact.

            So mr Adam Kemp. get your facts straight, okay?

              #1.18 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 3:09 PM EST
              Adam Kemp

              Are you saying that if objects start floating tomorrow that this would not disprove gravity, or are you saying that it's ridiculous to suggest that it's even possible for objects to start floating tomorrow?

              In the former case, I don't see how you could possibly believe in a force called gravity when objects clearly don't fall towards each other, so there's nothing ridiculous about saying that this would disprove gravity. The only reason we have to believe that gravity exists and follows the rules we know of is that it has always done so in the past. If it ever stops following those rules then obviously we were wrong.

              In the latter case, why would it be ridiculous to say that this could happen? How do you know that objects won't float away tomorrow? You can't possibly prove that. You seem to be under the false impression that gravity has been proven true, but this is exactly the misconception my article is trying to clear up. The scientific method is powerless to prove anything. It's literally impossible to prove a rule is true with science. It cannot be done. "Law" and "theory" in science as the same thing. There's no difference. In fact, Newton's "Laws of motion" have already been disproven by Einstein.

              Of course, evolution is a theory, because it is based on limited knowledge and information and it's occurrence is not observable like gravity.

              There are two very big mistakes you made here. First, gravity is based on limited knowledge, as I explained in the article. We can only make a limited number of observations about gravity. We cannot prove that gravity works everywhere for all times with the same rules we think it follows now. We would have to make an infinite number of observations to prove that. So already gravity and evolution are on the same terms. But in addition to that, evolution has been observed, and it has been tested. Clearly you know nothing about evolutionary theory and the evidence for it if you don't think it's ever been observed or tested before, so you need to do some reading before you get in these debates.

              Also, for the record, a huge number of believers, including Christians, accept evolution. In fact, the Catholic Church officially accepts the theory of evolution. You are trying to make this into a debate between atheism/evolution and theism/creationism, as if you can't have any combination of those beliefs. You're wrong. This has nothing to do with atheism or theism or Christianity. Evolution is an accepted scientific theory with so much evidence in favor of it that it is considered fact, just like gravity. It can't be proved, just like gravity, but it is about as close to certain as you can get scientifically.

              I believe that's the second time you have ended your post with a condescending "get your facts straight" comment, so I feel justified in pointing out that you clearly have no idea whatsoever what you're talking about. Your posts are full of misconceptions and a utter lack of understanding of science. So please, get your facts straight.

              • 3 votes
              #1.19 - Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:48 AM EST
              tedgarcia

              Adam Kemp

              Sorry mr. Kemp, but making these ridiculous assumptions  is just a desperate attempt  to prove your point.  It's just out of the ordinary think that tomorrow things will start floating.  It's like telling people that the sun will not rise tomorrow.  You have to be more realistic in your assumptions, mr. Kemp.  Anyway mr. Kemp, our discussion is about whether gravity is a theory or a fact, and so far it's been proven that gravity is a fact, not a theory. You are talking about the notion that someday gravity might be disproven as a fact.  We are talking about the present, but you want to spectculate about the future that most probably will not happen in our lifetime , or will never happen.  Please stop speculating, talk about facts.

              Adam Kemp said this,  ""There are two very big mistakes you made here. First, gravity is based on limited knowledge, as I explained in the article. We can only make a limited number of observations about gravity. We cannot prove that gravity works everywhere for all times with the same rules we think it follows now. ""

              What limited knowledge are you talking about, mr. Kemp? You didn't explain that in your article. Also, there's no limit as to the number of observations to prove gravity. You drop an object a zillion times, you'll observe the same results.    Where is "everywhere" that you are talking about in your above statement.  I hope you are not referring to the moon.  

              Mr Kemp, this discussion is about your assertion that gravity is just a theory, not about evolution.    Evolution is another talking point. You refuse to accept the fact that gravity is a fact, not a theory, becasue you refuse to distinguish fact from theory.  

               Kemp said'"There's no difference. In fact, Newton's "Laws of motion" have already been disproven by Einstein."

              Excuse me mr. Kemp, but we are talking about "Law of Gravity" NOT "Laws of Motion". I'm not a scientist, but I think the two laws are not the same.  Mr. Kemp, like I said, you are making a desperate attempt to prove your point.

              You may know more about science than I do, but I suggest use more common sense than your knowledge of science to prove your point.   For example, common sense dictates that you don't speculate that tomorrow objects will start floating.  Also,  it's nonsense to suggest that we go "somewhere " to prove gravity does not work, because we are talking about gravity here on earth. 

              I said "get your facts straight" becasue you refuse to give the definitions of theory and fact.  If you could just make a distinction between the two, maybe you'll get your facts straight.

                #1.20 - Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:38 PM EST
                tedgarcia

                Adam kemp your post#2.11 : " - - -, but you can't prove that it will work in every future test. It's logically """

                mr.Kemp ,your thinking is the one that's illogical.  Plesae tell me how you can prove something that's  in the future. 

                  #1.21 - Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:49 PM EST
                  Dan Hallo, aka, Zoilus

                  Plesae tell me how you can prove something that's  in the future. 

                  Besides everything that has to do with everything, Time and space, physics, matter, geometry, or reactions in Chemistry, Life and death?

                   How about predicting that you will invent some specious rationalization for these well known relationships of cause and effect, and be unable to admit how ridiculous and illogical your statement is.

                  • 3 votes
                  #1.22 - Sat Jan 10, 2009 3:52 PM EST
                  tedgarcia

                  Mr Hallo -

                  "Predicting" is not the same as "proving".  Please put some sense in your statements.  Seems like you just want to put in your 2-cents, just blabbering.

                    #1.23 - Sat Jan 10, 2009 4:10 PM EST
                    tedgarcia

                    By the way mr.Hallo, since you seem to agree with mr.Kemp's illogical and ridiculous statement, please  tell me how you can prove something in the future. No spin, just plain direct answer, please!!!!

                      #1.24 - Sat Jan 10, 2009 4:32 PM EST
                      Dan Hallo, aka, Zoilus

                      a proof is a prediction. I won.

                      • 2 votes
                      #1.25 - Sat Jan 10, 2009 5:05 PM EST
                      Adam Kemp

                      I have to ask: did you even read the article? It seems like maybe you just read the title or skimmed it a bit. Maybe you should stop wasting our time and go read the damn thing first. Then maybe you'll understand the difference between deductive and inductive logic and how science can only rely on inductive logic, and how inductive logic is completely powerless to prove things true. These are all basic facts about science, and the more you argue against them the more you show your complete lack of understanding of what science even is.

                      Since you think this example is equally ridiculous, let's go with it. How do you know the Sun will rise tomorrow? What evidence do you have, and can you prove it? How would you prove it?

                      Also, there's no limit as to the number of observations to prove gravity. You drop an object a zillion times, you'll observe the same results.    Where is "everywhere" that you are talking about in your above statement.  I hope you are not referring to the moon. 

                      Do you really think "a zillion" is "unlimited"? How do you know that the zillion+1th time isn't going to produce different results? This is not just a game I'm playing. This is the fundamental limitation of inductive reasoning. The more times you test something the higher confidence you can have in your predictions, but you can never have 100% confidence unless you can test every case, which in the case of physics means infinite tests. It can't be done.

                      You refuse to accept the fact that gravity is a fact, not a theory, becasue you refuse to distinguish fact from theory.

                      No, again, I accept that gravity is both a fact and a theory. You're the one who thinks those terms are mutually exclusive.

                      Excuse me mr. Kemp, but we are talking about "Law of Gravity" NOT "Laws of Motion". I'm not a scientist, but I think the two laws are not the same.

                      You missed the whole point. A "law" in science is a "theory". They're just different words for the same thing. The "law of gravity" is a theory. Ask any scientist. I promise you he will tell you the same thing I'm telling you.

                      For example, common sense dictates that you don't speculate that tomorrow objects will start floating.  Also,  it's nonsense to suggest that we go "somewhere " to prove gravity does not work, because we are talking about gravity here on earth.

                      Common sense is just using reason. If you use reason to predict how gravity will work tomorrow then you will have to use inductive reasoning. Based on your entire life's experience with gravity you have high confidence that gravity will work tomorrow, but you cannot possibly know with 100% certainty. It cannot be proven that tomorrow you won't float out of your chair. And it matters very much whether gravity works the same everywhere when you are trying to build a spaceship to travel between planets and study the solar system. It's not good enough to just know whether gravity works here. We need to know how it works and whether it works elsewhere.

                      • 3 votes
                      #1.26 - Sat Jan 10, 2009 9:45 PM EST
                      Dan Hallo, aka, Zoilus

                      Ted

                      You will die someday in the future.

                       The "proof" is the evadance of the total history of life on this planet. The "prediction" is that it will happen to you because it is proofed a fact, even before it happens. The probability is 100% ,.

                      In Math Theory, [remember that a "theory" is an investigation into the mechanism of a known fact, like gravity, and there can be many different theories on any one subject, but this does not change the fact being examined by the theory.]  A "proof"  is a series of predictable stages, called facts, in the resolution of a mathematical problem. and must be repeatable/predictable, in order to be a proof. And then this is added to the already known facts and is called a "fact" as well. Thus, it can be used as a part of a proof that leads to the discovery additional 'Facts", iteration, it's fun. And this is all part of the Scientific Method, and the Angles sing Hallelujah. This can be a mind blower to the unsophisticated mind.

                      You learn your basic "Facts" [and figures] in preschool and elementary school. And depending on your cognitive abilities you can advance to the higher concepts and more advanced proofs. I hope you pass.

                        #1.27 - Sat Jan 10, 2009 10:47 PM EST
                        Adam Kemp

                        Dan, you are confusing the issue. The word "theory" in math has a different meaning than in science, and you keep implying that there is such a thing as "proof" in science. This whole article was about the fact that the only thing science can prove is that something is not true. Science can never prove that something is true. Math doesn't work that way. It uses deductive reasoning, not inductive reasoning.

                          #1.28 - Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:00 PM EST
                          Dan Hallo, aka, Zoilus

                          Sorry math is science. the abstract science of number, quantity, and space. Mathematics may be studied in its own right ( pure mathematics), or as it is applied to other disciplines such as physics and engineering ( applied mathematics). It's not complicated to me.

                            #1.29 - Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:30 PM EST
                            Adam Kemp

                            You're equivocating. Math may be called a "science", but it is not science in the sense of using the scientific method. The scientific method is based on inductive reasoning, which is completely different from how math works. Science uses math, but math itself is not the same as science. Math can prove things within mathematical systems because it uses deductive reasoning, but science cannot prove things because it can only use inductive reasoning.

                            Think about it. We don't use the scientific method to prove mathematical theorems. We don't need to rely on observation and experimentation to prove the Pythagorean Theorem. That's because math is not science.

                            I'm not trying to just nitpick. It is very important to make this distinction because math and science fundamentally work differently, and that is what this article is all about. If you try to treat science like math then you come up with the false idea that science can prove things like math does, which it most certainly cannot.

                            • 1 vote
                            #1.30 - Sun Jan 11, 2009 12:44 AM EST
                            Dan Hallo, aka, Zoilus

                            Think about it. We don't use the scientific method to prove mathematical theorems.

                            May be called? What came first? the inductive reasoning, characterized by the inference of general laws from particular instances, that lead to  the physics proof  that hydrogen had one electron and one ion, or the experiment that was devised to confirmed the derived proof was fact? 

                            Your correct in some respects, but it is not always the case, and it's a mistake to say that it is always the general rule. As the scientific method, was not used until After Einstein, did the pure mathematics that lead to E=Mc2.

                            • 1 vote
                            #1.31 - Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:15 AM EST
                            spiffie

                            As the scientific method, was not used until After Einstein, did the pure mathematics that lead to E=Mc2.

                            E=Mc^2 in theory, though.  Inductive inference from observations is what supports that relationship, but it's not proven that E=Mc^2 in the physical world.

                            • 1 vote
                            #1.32 - Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:03 AM EST
                            Dan Hallo, aka, Zoilus

                            but it's not proven that E=Mc^2 in the physical world.

                            Is there a type-o here?

                            How is this not proven in the real world if we have Nuclear reactors that work based on this ?

                            • 1 vote
                            #1.33 - Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 AM EST
                            Adam Kemp

                            I feel like I'm banging my head against a brick wall here. E=mc^2 is not proven. You could just a well have asked "how is F=ma (Newton's Second Law of Motion) not proven in the real world when we can use it every day?". Well, gess what? F=ma is wrong. Einstein's theory (and later experiments) disproved Newton's "laws". The more accurate equation is actually this:

                            F-(F.v)*v/c^2 = m*(dv/dt)

                            (where F.v is the dot-product of F and v)

                            This is an example of a very important aspect of science: every theory is, at best, an approximation of the truth. It is a working model that can be improved upon at any time. For a very long time F=ma was the best model for force that anyone knew of, but it was still nothing more than a theory. No one could ever prove that it was the absolute truth, and ultimately the opposite happened: someone came along and proved that it was not the truth.

                            Now Einstein's equations are the best model we have available, but it would be stupid to assume that his equations are the truth. We can't prove that, and we never will. Most likely someone will come along and find a better model that matches even better with newer observations, and maybe even works at a quantum level. Then someone else might come along and improve on that model.

                            We can't possibly ever know where this chain will end because the very methods we're using are fundamentally limited by the fact that we can only make a finite number of observations on which to base our models. The fact that our models fit all observations so far does not mean that they will match all observations in the future.

                            • 1 vote
                            #1.34 - Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:59 AM EST
                            Dan Hallo, aka, Zoilus

                            "(Lise Meitner,) Ernest Walton and John Cockroft (1932) who were the first to split the nucleus in a completely controlled maner....  In doing so they were also the first to verify Einstein's law: E = mc² "

                            It all began with perhaps the most famous formula in the history of science—Albert Einstein's deceptively simple mathematical expression of the relationship between matter and energy. E=mc2, or energy equals mass multiplied by the speed of light squared, demonstrated that under certain conditions mass could be converted into energy and, more significantly, that a very small amount of matter was equivalent to a very great deal of energy. Einstein's formula, part of his work on relativity published in 1905, gained new significance in the 1930s as scientists in several countries were making a series of discoveries about the workings of the atom. The culmination came in late 1938, when Lise Meitner, an Austrian physicist who had recently escaped Nazi Germany and was living in Stockholm, got a message from longtime colleagues Otto Hahn and Fritz Strassmann in Berlin. Meitner had been working with them on an experiment involving bombarding uranium atoms with neutrons, and Hahn and Strassman were reporting a puzzling result. The product of the experiment seemed to be barium, a much lighter element. Meitner and her nephew, physicist Otto Frisch, recognized that what had occurred was the splitting of the uranium atoms, a process Meitner and Frisch were the first to call "fission." Italian physicist Enrico Fermi had achieved the same result several years earlier, also without realizing exactly what he had done. Among other things, fission converted some of the original atom's mass into energy, an amount Meitner and Frisch were able to calculate accurately using Einstein's formula. The news spread quickly through the scientific community and soon reached a much wider audience. On January 29, 1939, the New York Times, misspeaking slightly, headlined the story about the discovery: "Atomic Explosion Frees 200,000,000 Volts."

                            Of course, disagreement is always par for the course. And everyone is someone else's brick wall.

                            • 1 vote
                            #1.35 - Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:44 AM EST
                            spiffie

                            Verification is not absolute proof, though.  They verified that expected observations were consistent with Einstein's theories, but no single (or even finite number of) observation(s) will ever definitively and totally prove a theory which has been developed using inductive reasoning.

                            Einstein's theory is still wrong, it's just less wrong than Newton's theory, and we don't have a theory that we know is less wrong yet again than Einstein's.  Einstein's theory is currently the least wrong verified theory we have.

                            • 1 vote
                            #1.36 - Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:03 PM EST
                            Adam Kemp

                            Dan, I understand why you're confused. Scientists are not nearly careful enough in how they explain things, especially in popular media (as opposed to scientific papers). Still, when a scientist says that they have "verified" something they don't mean that they have proven it true. In science, the goal of an experiment is always to disprove something. They set it up so that they either prove that a hypothesis is false, or they fail to prove that the hypothesis is false. They literally can't prove that it's true.

                            When they attempted (and succeeded) at splitting the atom they found a very strong piece of evidence that Einstein's theory was valid (essentially they disproved Newton's "laws"), but they can't prove in absolute terms that Einstein's equations are actually "true". Just like Einstein found that there was another term missing in Newton's equations that we hadn't yet accounted for, someone else may come along and add another term to Einstein's which would disprove his theory. In fact, it's very likely.

                            This is confusing because you have to stop thinking about things as either true or false and instead think of them in terms of either consistent with the evidence (so far) or inconsistent with the evidence. That is, things are either known to be false, or not yet shown to be false. The more times we try to show that something is false and fail to do so the more confidence we can have that it's at least true enough for practical purposes, but in absolute terms you can never say that you know it's true.

                            Please, try to think about this, and if you still think I'm wrong then try to explain to me how one would really prove that no one could possibly improve Einstein's equations. While you're doing that, consider that at one time every single piece of evidence collected so far pointed to Newton's equations being the most accurate. How could you prove that Einstein's equations are the final equations for force?

                            • 1 vote
                            #1.37 - Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:27 PM EST
                            Reply
                            Cash

                            Gravity is reproducible. I don't need to be able to test it infinite times, I need to test it in front of a peer review and they need to be able to reproduce it. Try creating a universe that way. Or evolving from fish.

                            I am not sure who your complaint is with; theoretical physicsts or people who want to believe a deity created life? We can't reproduce evolution or the big bang and there is no evidence of any kind that either of those is the source of life, there's just pretty conclusive proof it's how we got where we are now.

                            That allows people to believe whatever they want about the origin of existence and man, but so what?

                            • 6 votes
                            Reply#2 - Tue Jan 9, 2007 10:27 PM EST
                            Adam Kemp

                            How reproducible is gravity? Every test has worked so far, but will the next? You can't say for sure. It's a good bet that it will, but you can't prove it.

                            There are very few scientific theories about the creation of the Universe (the Big Bang isn't a theory about creation), and the ones that do exist are extremely theoretical and not well-accepted.

                            Evolution can be tested, and it has been tested. This article is not meant to be a thorough defense of evolution (which is why I didn't use evolution as my main example), but if you would like to understand the various tests that evolution has gone through then you can read about it. The reason it is accepted by nearly every scientist (especially in the fields related to biology) is that it has been tested and supported in so many different ways.

                            We can't reproduce evolution or the big bang and there is no evidence of any kind that either of those is the source of life, there's just pretty conclusive proof it's how we got where we are now.

                            It sounds like you're contradicting yourself. "How we got where we are" is the same as "the source of life". Perhaps you can clarify the distinction. Also, there is no "conclusive proof" of either of those theories. That's what my article was about. What we have is strong evidence that the Big Bang occurred and that evolution explains the diversity of life on Earth.

                            For the record, we have reproduced evolution as well.

                            • 31 votes
                            #2.1 - Tue Jan 9, 2007 11:01 PM EST
                            UKMattDeleted
                            Adam Kemp

                            The complaint (if I may speak for the author) is with believers of intelligent design who claim "evolution is only a theory" in an attempt to make it appear less true.

                            Yes, that is one of the common arguments I am refuting. The other is that if you can't prove a scientific theory, then any alternative theory (regardless of evidence) is equally valid. Since no scientific theory can ever be proved, then this argument can't be true. The same logic would imply that fairies are a valid explanation for the common cold.

                            • 21 votes
                            #2.3 - Tue Jan 9, 2007 11:11 PM EST
                            Cash

                            Cash - |We can't reproduce evolution or the big bang and there is no evidence of any kind that either of those is the source of life, there's just pretty conclusive proof it's how we got where we are now.|

                            Adam-It sounds like you're contradicting yourself. "How we got where we are" is the same as "the source of life".

                            You began life as a baby. That is not how you got where you are today. You got how you are today because of your environment. I didn't say there is no proof of evolution, I said there is no proof that evolution is how life began. All we know is that it did begin and that we evolved. If religious people want to worship an old guy in a beard, I am okay with it. If biologists want to worship Darwin and Mendel, I am okay with that too.

                            • 6 votes
                            #2.4 - Tue Jan 9, 2007 11:38 PM EST
                            praetor605

                            I said there is no proof that evolution is how life began. All we know is that it did begin and that we evolved.

                            Probably because evolution does not deal with how life arose. That is origins of life research and is mainly concerned with the biochemical construction of basic structures such as cell walls and a genetic code. Once life did arise, evolution can be used to show how it went from there to here.

                            • 22 votes
                            #2.5 - Tue Jan 9, 2007 11:57 PM EST
                            Adam Kemp

                            First I want to emphasize something in your comment related to my article:

                            I didn't say there is no proof of evolution, I said there is no proof that evolution is how life began. (emphasis added)

                            Never use the term "proof" in the context of science for the reasons given in the article above. That was the entire point of the article.

                            Second, the neither the theory of evolution, nor the theories relating to the origin of life, nor the Big Bang, nor any other scientific theory have anything at all to do with God. You are free to worship whomever or whatever you choose, and so long as you don't start making claims that science can test, then science will never get in your way.

                            Unfortunately, some people incorporate testable claims into their religion. Young Earth Creationists believe that the Earth is 6000 years old, but science has incredibly strong evidence that they're wrong. Creationists in general believe that God created man as he is today, but again science has strong evidence to the contrary.

                            The only time science and religion collide is when a religion makes a claim that can be tested. Theories about the creation cannot be tested (at least not based on our current understanding of the Universe). Theories that are inherently non-natural (like souls or heaven or hell or whatever) cannot be tested by their very nature. Science can't touch those. It can't verify or disprove them.

                            If what you want is for scientists to give you their blessing, then you'll probably be disappointed. A claim that can't be tested isn't viewed favorably by most scientists, so they're likely to reject your beliefs based on lack of evidence alone. If, however, you simply want someone to acknowledge that God doesn't conflict with science, then wish granted. It doesn't. At least not in an abstract sense.

                            • 27 votes
                            #2.6 - Wed Jan 10, 2007 12:18 AM EST
                            A_J

                            Coming from a scientific perspective, I agree with Cash - you don't need to test all possible combinations to prove something; but you do need to have proper a understanding and formulation of the fundamental principals to prove something. In Isaac Newton's Philosophiae Naturalis Principia Mathematica he explains the effect gravity has on object but made no claim as to its mechanism. The proof of gravity and its effect lies with the mechanism. Einstein made the first good stab at the mechanism with his Theory of General Relativity where he explained that gravity works because it warps the space-time fabric (for more information see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_relativity). He didn't, however explain why gravity exists or why it warps the fabric in that way.

                            Now enters a more modern view of the universe: String Theory. At a basic level, this theory attempts to explain why the universe works at the fundamental level. For example there are good models as to why an electron weighs what it does, why light travels at the speed it does and so on. There is still much work to be done but in the context of how something works at the most basic level you CAN prove something. So called M-Theory is a topic whereby physicists try to prove that a particular formulation is correct by mathematically proving that it is the ONLY way that everything works out. Since this structure would fully describe everything in the universe without exception, they can prove everything about gravity in that context. (for more read The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene)

                            It may be possible that don't have the intellect to formulate that framework but the fact remains that it CAN be proven. In math, for example, one can prove certain properties without testing every combination. For example, that adding 2 to an even number produces an even number. Yes that seems trivial but it can be mathematically proven because the foundations of math are well understood. So while we cannot prove gravity now, that doesn't mean that it is an impossible feat.

                            • 7 votes
                            #2.7 - Wed Jan 10, 2007 12:51 PM EST
                            Adam Hobson

                            A_J, that's a good explanation, though I'd be careful how much you tie string theory into all of this. String theory is still very much on shaky footing. The theory doesn't even exist, only a framework. I believe they are still working on the math for the second approximation, this is far far from even a testable theory much like a workable one.

                            • 2 votes
                            #2.8 - Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:21 PM EST
                            Jimmy Pan

                            Math is a system defined by humans, whereas the universe is not.
                            Additionally 2 + an even number is not an even number in every mathmatical system, only in our base 10 (or any multiple of 2 i guess). There's really no reason to exclude the possibility of a region of the universe that has no gravity at all, or any of the other physical tenets that we take for granted.

                            • 2 votes
                            #2.9 - Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:16 PM EST
                            Adam Hobson

                            whereas the universe is not.

                            can you prove that ;-)

                            • 4 votes
                            #2.10 - Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:40 PM EST
                            Adam Kemp

                            A_J, I still disagree. It is fundamentally impossible to prove that if you try to drop a book it will fall to the ground. You can test it and see if it works, but you can't prove that it will work in every future test. It's logically impossible.

                            • 8 votes
                            #2.11 - Wed Jan 10, 2007 3:02 PM EST
                            Jason Coleman

                            I think Adam's point is that science cannot rule out black swans, even when evidence points to their non-existence. This is both a requirement and limitation of science. However, we can of course set policy and make practical use of well-behaved phenomena. This is, however, applied science and engineering, not pure science. Doctors and engineers, for example, can rely on the theory of gravity as being essentially law, as "why" isn't the aim of their pursuit. However, theoretical physicist cannot as "why" is the aim of theirs.

                            • 5 votes
                            #2.12 - Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:54 PM EST
                            Behind My Screen

                            Cash....

                            No one in evolution says we evolved from a Fish.

                            Fish and Humans have a common ancestor (that ancestor is likely common to all animals in existence today given how far back one must go to find such an animal)

                            • 1 vote
                            #2.13 - Mon Jan 15, 2007 1:11 AM EST
                            Adam Kemp

                            BMS: Technically you could argue that this common ancestor was a fish. I believe that would accurate. It just wasn't the same kind of fish that we see living today.

                            • 3 votes
                            #2.14 - Mon Jan 15, 2007 1:32 AM EST
                            Reply
                            mogmich

                            Clear and precisely formulated - good article!

                            In a discussion about "Naturalism" versus religion I recently argued for the view, that the question of miracles done by Jesus is not the main point in Christianity. I still think that - but your article inspired me to this reflection:

                            Hypothetical events that contradict a natural law should be put in two different categories: 1)Events that just happen, without being controlled by any person, and 2)Events that are controlled by a person.

                            An example of the second kind of miracle could be Uri Geller claiming that he can bend spoons. This can obviously be tested under scientific conditions.

                            But hypothetical events in the first category is a greater challenge. If someone actually saw an object spontaneously hanging in the air, violating the laws of gravity, he then knows that gravity not always works. In spite of this, you cannot say that the laws of gravity is proved to be incorrect, because the person is not able to repeat the event. Which leads to the question: Isn't it a consequence of your view in the article, that such an event actually doesn't contradict science?

                            • 5 votes
                            Reply#3 - Tue Jan 9, 2007 10:57 PM EST
                            Adam Kemp

                            I think the basic point you're making is that a miracle claim is not necessarily a contradiction of science. This is true. However, science is also very dependent on evidence. Every claim, including miracle claims, is subject to evidential support. When confronted with a miracle claim that contradicts known experimental results any scientist would be a fool to accept that the miracle occurred without more evidence than hearsay.

                            You also need to consider other parts of the system. For instance, with a miracle claim you have to consider the possibility that someone is lying. We have plenty of evidence to show that humans tend to lie. We have a whole collection of past miracle claims that have turned out to be hoaxes. When trying to determine if this new miracle claim is true or not you have to weigh past experiences.

                            What is more likely: That someone can defy gravity in some unknown way that is not reproducible (that is, we don't know how to reproduce it), or that someone is lying about it?

                            The obvious choice is the second, and that's why miracle claims are treated as hoaxes by default. The only way to convince a skeptical scientist of a miracle claim is to show him a way to test the claim in a way that will outweigh all of his past experiences in favor of the new data.

                            • 12 votes
                            #3.1 - Tue Jan 9, 2007 11:08 PM EST
                            mogmich

                            I agree with all you say above. What I was aiming at is a little more subtle. When you say that:

                            What is more likely: That someone can defy gravity in some unknown way that is not reproducible (that is, we don't know how to reproduce it), or that someone is lying about it?

                            I think you are perfectly right, but: It has the consequence, that an honest person, who has actually witnessed such an event, probably would prefer to keep his mouth, instead of taking the risk of being called a liar.

                            What I mean is, that it is sometimes better just to reject a claim by saying "not convincing" - rather than saying "you are lying!"

                            To give an example: I have a brother who claims that he has seen a UFO many years ago. I tend to reject it, for the reasons you have mentioned, but I wouldn't call him a liar, because he is an honest person.

                            • 8 votes
                            #3.2 - Wed Jan 10, 2007 12:16 AM EST
                            Adam Kemp

                            What I mean is, that it is sometimes better just to reject a claim by saying "not convincing" - rather than saying "you are lying!"

                            Perhaps, but that's a semantic difference. It's also possible that the witness was fooled. I doubt he would like being told that he was gullible either. Even if you leave it at "not convincing" someone is likely to interpret that as "you're a liar" or "you're gullible". It's going to be tough to avoid hurting someone's feelings in that situation. :)

                            The best you can hope for is to say that there are many possible (more-likely) natural explanations for these claims, and that until sufficient evidence is given to support the claim you are compelled to discount them. Even if your brother's word is good enough for you it won't be good enough for many other people.

                            • 9 votes
                            #3.3 - Wed Jan 10, 2007 12:23 AM EST
                            Jim Dent

                            I'm nitpicking here, so be sure to file this under "for what it's worth"...

                            I too have seen a UFO. It was an Object, Flying through the air, that I have as yet been unable to Identify. Strictly speaking, it fits the definition of a UFO. I'm fairly certain of what it wasn't, but I have no clue as to what it was. Why would the statement "I saw a UFO" cause anyone to think of me as a liar or a gullible crackpot? If I make no claims as to an extraterrestrial encounter, my statement is valid....

                            • 7 votes
                            #3.4 - Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:10 PM EST
                            Jack Huang

                            Jim, your point is entirely valid, and the blame lies with social connotations of the word "UFO."

                            I've seen many a UFO, but I remember cracking jokes in middle school about using "UFO" to describe things I saw, then clarifying that I intended no implication of extraterrestrial spacecraft or flying saucers.

                            • 5 votes
                            #3.5 - Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:08 PM EST
                            Moon In Blue Water

                            Jim Dent: We think you're a crackpot based on scientific method: multiple observations over a period of time, but this can be disproved by giving us observations to the contrary (just joshing :)

                            When it comes to Miracle Claims (MC), there's three issues that always cloud things:

                            1. What's a Miracle? The common understanding is that it is something that does not have an obvious causal explanation, 99% of the time the motive force being ascribed to supernatural causes such as a deity. (This is excluding more ordinary use, when it is applied to something that is just highly unlikely, e.g.; "It's a miracle we won the game, given how badly we played in the first half," although some religions would say that is a miracle from God as well). By this definition, science has no role to play, as it is tautological. It is God's hand by definition. To argue that a miracle is not such is nonsense, one can only argue that the event is not a miracle.

                            2. Faulty Observation. MCs are mostly not thought to be lies by scientists (good ones, anyway) because inductive reasoning, explained above, is open ended; the evidence and theories we have are never complete (exhaustive proof) therefore the explanation of an observation may simply require more information. Because scientists, most people actually, are skeptics, MCs tend to get classed as observations that didn't take into account all the data. The UFO example would be the Swamp Gas phenomenon, where mysterious lights were seen at night that were ultimately proven to be gaseous material that arose out of nearby swamps (don't remember the details). The original observers claiming UFO simply didn't have all the data.

                            This gets more complex when applied to larger issues, such as the origins of life, but the underlying principle is the same. There is nothing contradictory between Big Bang theory and God creating the Universe, for example, because we don't know the causality of the Big Bang -- it could be God.

                            3. Why vs. How and What. Science is mostly concerned with What is happening or will happen, and How it comes about, the mechanics or process. Religion is primarily concerned with Why things happen, the purpose or meaning of events. When we begin to cross these up, arguments become confused.

                            • 2 votes
                            #3.6 - Sat Jan 13, 2007 10:07 AM EST
                            michaelj-or

                            Dear Moon in Blue Water...

                            I think your points are very good.

                            There is nothing contradictory between Big Bang theory and God creating the Universe, for example, because we don't know the causality of the Big Bang -- it could be God.

                            What if it was God and the Big Bang was a scientific experiment that went... wrong... or maybe right?

                              #3.7 - Sat Jan 13, 2007 3:16 PM EST
                              Issywise

                              Isn't causality a human construct? Why does God need to operate on causal principles? The associative reasoning that is the basis of causality is based on our experiences in this universe. It is, indeed, the very reason we test our inferences with observations of nature.

                              My obtusely hinted at point is that science is a very limited and focused tool to produce limited, focused and always limited inferences. Matters as universal as the existence or non-existence of God are well beyond our capacity to frame inferences--even scientifically valid ones.

                              Reason is not the tool to use if you are reaching for God.

                                #3.8 - Mon Jun 9, 2008 4:58 PM EDT
                                Adam Kemp

                                There is no tool to use if you're searching for God. It's a meaningless concept that people just assert without reason.

                                • 1 vote
                                #3.9 - Mon Jun 9, 2008 9:29 PM EDT
                                Reply
                                Harikaram Singh

                                Gravity, and more generally, "inductive reasoning" can't be proved by "deductive reasoning". If it could you'd probably not make the distinction. It doensn't make it any less "valid" of a means for "proving" something.

                                Deductive reasoning is just as limited as inductive reasoning when you get to the nuts and bolts of things (eg. Godel's theorem). It's just thanks to certain Greeks of the past and more recently, half-informed masses (much worse than the ignorant, imho), we westerners have evolved to accept "deduction" as the only form of reasoning worthy of our exaltation.

                                In the end, gravity *is* what it *is* - what God, the Universal Source, or Randomness made it to be. The concepts man creates to define, understand, and measure it, come second and are no more or less "real" than anything else that comes out of one's head. The mistake these debates make is confusing the correctness of the theory for the "existence" of a concept in nature.

                                • 3 votes
                                Reply#4 - Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:58 AM EST
                                Behind My Screen

                                Scientific induction is a slightly different beast than mathematical induction.

                                the universe is not a well ordered or well behaved set thus induction cannot be used to prove anything like one can do in the set of positive integers.... because of this limitation, scientific induction is incapable of proving something beyond the observations taken.

                                Also,
                                Deduction is not a reasoning tool that one can necessarily use in experimentation, however it is a reasoning tool that one can use to guide you to a possible explanation with which to apply an experiment. Because of this deduction is still a very important part of science. Because science uses observations however, deduction can not be used in testing an experiment.

                                You elude to other forms of reasoning other than induction and deduction... Am I misreading your intention in the second paragraph or is that what you mean?

                                • 2 votes
                                #4.1 - Mon Jan 15, 2007 1:34 AM EST
                                Issywise

                                Different indeed. Math is totally man made, functions independent of any reference to nature and is still fallible--see Godel's theorem. The Greeks thought math implied a perfection in creation that was concealed in nature--to some of them math was more "real" than reality.

                                The point is that human capacities--reasoning and observational fall far short of the capacity necessary to prove or disprove a God. I subscribe to the falliblist perspective--admit our limits and limit our self-delusions, vanities and outright foolishness.

                                  #4.2 - Mon Jun 9, 2008 5:04 PM EDT
                                  Reply
                                  jpark

                                  Gravity is not a theory. It is a fact.

                                  Our theories of gravity state that gravity works always the same way everywhere and that we can describe the acceleration of masses mathematically. We don't know what causes mass, inertia or gravity. Our theories merely try to describe our observations. Our theories are subject to change at any time and are in no sense true or false. They are just tools.

                                  Theories of gravity differ from theories of evolution in the sense that theories of gravity attempt to describe our reproducible observations while theories of evolution attempt to describe our conjectures.

                                  Neither theory is in any sense true or false. They are just useful tools.

                                  We err if we say 'Our theory of gravity is a fact'. We also err if we say 'Our theory of evolution is a fact'.

                                  • 1 vote
                                  #5 - Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:17 AM EST
                                  spiffie

                                  The "fact" is that we observe organisms changing gradually over generations. The "fact" is that we see a progression of forms from earlier times to later times, preserved for us in fossils and in the geological column in exactly the order we would expect. The "fact" is that we observe species extinction.

                                  These are observations, too. These are facts, too. These are matters which science is dealing with through conceptual tools called theories, too. There is no material difference between the philosophy of science dealing with gravity and evolution.

                                  • 6 votes
                                  #5.1 - Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:30 AM EST
                                  Jimmy Pan

                                  Our theories of gravity state that gravity works always the same way everywhere

                                  Not in the X74837 Galaxy, in sector J895jf8. Prove me wrong.

                                  • 1 vote
                                  #5.2 - Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:18 PM EST
                                  jpark

                                  JimmyP,

                                  Not disputing that. Our theories presume that gravity works the same everywhere. Gravity may well differ from our theories substantially. That is why our theories are just theories.

                                    #5.3 - Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:38 PM EST
                                    Adam Kemp

                                    Gravity is not a theory. It is a fact.

                                    I'm not sure whether you're disagreeing with me on semantics or disputing the entire article. Gravity is not proved correct universally, nor can it ever be. I don't have a problem with calling it a "fact" because it's so strongly supported that questioning it is generally a waste of time. Still, technically it is unproved.

                                    In the same respect, evolution is a fact in that it is so well supported by evidence that questioning it is generally a waste of time. There's too much evidence to explain by an alternative theory, and so little evidence that causes serious problems for evolution that no one has so far been able to disprove evolution. You're welcome to try.

                                    In terms of science, there is no difference between evolution and gravity. Both are extremely well-supported by evidence and taken as "fact".

                                    • 12 votes
                                    #5.4 - Wed Jan 10, 2007 3:10 PM EST
                                    jpark

                                    Adam Kemp,

                                    Not on semantics but on the difference in theories and observations. Gravity is demonstrable and obvious. What causes gravity is unknown. Our theories merely describe its observed behavior. As such, our theories are only tools, neither true or false.

                                    Evolution is less demonstrable and less obvious. We have no other mechanism by which we can explain the appearance of new creatures. Therefore, evolution as a mechanism of life diversity is highly likely. It is difficult to assign certainty to something which cannot be demonstrated and repeated.

                                    As a theory, evolution is no more or less factual than gravity theories. Theories are just tools. The terms true or false don't apply to tools.

                                      #5.5 - Wed Jan 10, 2007 3:51 PM EST
                                      Adam Kemp

                                      I think you're just comparing how easily something can be tested. Certainly is very easy to test gravity. We do it quite literally every second of our lives. However, this doesn't make any more "proven".

                                      Evolution, on the other hand, is more complicated. Some people even go so far as to say (falsely) that it is untested or even untestable. It is testable, though, and it has been tested. The problem is that people think of all scientific tests as taking place in a lab somewhere. That's not how science always works.

                                      There are ways to test evolution that I don't feel compelled to explain in detail here, but if someone wants a good explanation then I recommend Richard Dawkins's The Blind Watchmaker. The point here is that evolution has been tested, and in fact it has been tested so much that it is considered just as much "fact" as Einstein's theories on relativity. It's not as easy to verify by the layman, but it is quite well-tested.

                                      • 11 votes
                                      #5.6 - Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:03 PM EST
                                      Jason Coleman

                                      It's true that evolution doesn't get tested by just dropping a lead ball off of a building or dropping a accelerating agent into a test tube to turn the water pink (okay, maybe that could be part of the experiment, but not likely). However, if you really want some great information, I like to point people to Talk Origins. Start with "Observed Instances of Speciation" (part of their FAQ) and then read "29+ Evidences for Marcoevolution." The whole site is a great source of well referenced material if you really do want to learn why evolution is such sound science.

                                      Finally, from that site, their short-form response to the statement: "evolution is not falsifiable and is not a proper scientific theory."

                                      1. There are many conceivable lines of evidence that could falsify evolution. For example:
                                        • a static fossil record;
                                        • true chimeras, that is, organisms that combined parts from several different and diverse lineages (such as mermaids and centaurs) and which are not explained by lateral gene transfer, which transfers relatively small amounts of DNA between lineages, or symbiosis, where two whole organisms come together;
                                        • a mechanism that would prevent mutations from accumulating;
                                        • observations of organisms being created.
                                      2. This claim, coming from creationists, is absurd, since almost all creationism is nothing more than (unsubstantiated) claims that evolution has been falsified.
                                      • 8 votes
                                      #5.7 - Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:18 PM EST
                                      jpark

                                      Adam Kemp,

                                      But as Einstein's theory of gravity is not a fact, neither is evolution theory.

                                      Regarding the mechanism of evolution:

                                      That genetic makeup can change over time and that changes to genes can be passed on to offspring is observable fact. That natural processes can select for certain genetic traits is observable fact. That new creatures can arise from genetic changes and natural selection is strongly indicated by the above facts and strongly supported by geological records. That new creatures have appeared is a fact. That natural selection of genetic variation accounts for the appearance of new creatures is strongly indicated -- not proven or factual.

                                      Lets try this a different way:

                                      We don't know what causes gravity, but we observe that masses tend to accelerate toward each other. We have developed theories describing this tendency. We don't try to define these theories as 'fact'. As theories, they can't be true or false. Since we don't even know the cause of gravity, it would be at least premature to declare we know the facts.

                                      We don't know what causes life or what drives it, but we observe that life is diverse, that genetic material changes over time and the natural processes tend to select certain genetic traits. We have developed theories to describe this.

                                      Why is it that in the first case, a statement that 'this is just a theory' will meet with no dispute, but in the second case the statement that 'this is just a theory' will meet with tremendous dispute?

                                      All theories are just tools. They are all 'just theories'.

                                        #5.8 - Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:58 PM EST
                                        Jack Huang

                                        Why is it that in the first case, a statement that 'this is just a theory' will meet with no dispute, but in the second case the statement that 'this is just a theory' will meet with tremendous dispute?

                                        The simple answer? No one's ever tried to propose Intelligent Falling because gravity is "just a theory."

                                        On the other hand, "just a theory" is thrown about when it comes to evolution as a way to say "Psh, it's just some dude's guess."

                                        There is no attempt to undermine the theory of gravity as a very good and very accurate description of the natural world when people say "just a theory." With evolution, that connotation is very, very much alive.

                                        • 11 votes
                                        #5.9 - Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:07 PM EST
                                        Adam Kemp

                                        Jack Huang explained it. The reason people (like me) get annoyed when people call evolution "just a theory" is that the intent of such a phrase is most often to write it off as nothing more than a guess. The intent is to make evolution seem like it's not well-supported compared to other theories in science.

                                        The purpose of this article was to show that all of science is "just a theory", and so basing an argument against a scientific theory based on the fact that it is "just a theory" makes no sense. You may as well call gravity "just a theory" and propose "Intelligent Falling" as a valid alternative. That argument is no different.

                                        • 9 votes
                                        #5.10 - Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:18 PM EST
                                        yarDeleted
                                        jpark

                                        Jack Huang and Adam Kemp,

                                        Both of you mentioned the concept of 'Intelligent falling' because gravity is 'just a theory'. My point is that gravity is not a theory. It is a fact.

                                        The theory describing gravity is indeed just a theory.

                                        There should be a distinction between a theory and the observations it describes.

                                        In the same manner that you equated gravity with the theory describing gravity, there is a strong tendency to say evolution (meaning the theory) when in fact the concept under discussion is natural selection.

                                        If you are talking about gravity, you can say that is a fact. If you are talking about the theory of gravity, you have no valid reason to call it a fact. If you are discussing natural selection, you can say it is a fact. If you are discussing the theory of evolution, you have no valid reason to say it is a fact.

                                        It is difficult to support a position when we use inequivalent terms interchangeably.

                                        As to 'Intelligent falling', I don't think it likely that God spends his time pushing masses together, but if someone presents a belief that gravity is God pushing masses together, I won't say he is wrong. Not because I think the theory has any validity, but because I have no idea what causes gravity. ;-)

                                        • 1 vote
                                        #5.12 - Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:02 PM EST
                                        Adam Kemp

                                        You're both arguing semantics. The observation is that things tend to fall towards Earth. The name for that phenomenon is what we call "gravity". I'm using that term as a name for the rule that "things will fall to the Earth" (or the more generalized "matter is attracted to other matter"). That rule is not proved. We know for a fact that this rule has always worked in the known past and at the present moment, but it is not a known, proven fact that it will exist 1 second from now. That's an assumption we make.

                                        jpark, your distinction between evolution and natural selection confuses me. They are technically distinct (evolution is generally used to mean "evolution through natural selection" or some other more complicated phrase), but the one that's generally disputed is the natural selection part. Even ID proponents believe in evolution and common descent. It's natural selection that they have a problem with, since they believe that divine intervention is necessary for complexity to arise.

                                        • 7 votes
                                        #5.13 - Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:19 PM EST
                                        spiffie

                                        If you are discussing natural selection, you can say it is a fact. If you are discussing the theory of evolution, you have no valid reason to say it is a fact.

                                        You're comparing apples to oranges. The theory of gravity is analogous to the theory of evolution by the process of natural selection. The fact of "falling" is analogous to the facts we observe of variation in forms throughout time, fossils, and the distribution of forms in the geological column. There are observations that natural selection is meant to explain. It's wrong to say that natural selection is the fact that is being explained by evolution.

                                        • 5 votes
                                        #5.14 - Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:21 PM EST
                                        jpark

                                        Adam Kemp,

                                        Sorry about the confusion. I can't see how anyone can effectively argue against natural selection. Human mediated selection was known and used effectively thousands of years ago. To argue that natural pressures would be ineffective when human mediated pressures are very effective would be an extremely difficult position to defend.

                                        ID proponents hold that new creatures cannot arise from natural selection alone, that divine intervention is necessary.

                                        It is difficult to argue for or against ID. Who can say with any authority that God is or isn't involved directly?

                                        • 1 vote
                                        #5.15 - Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:39 PM EST
                                        Jack Huang

                                        It is difficult to argue for or against ID.

                                        Actually, it's entirely impossible using physical evidence, which is why it is nothing close to a scientific theory.

                                        I frankly don't understand why we're still discussing ID.

                                        • 7 votes
                                        #5.16 - Wed Jan 10, 2007 8:11 PM EST
                                        jpark

                                        Jack Huang,

                                        "I frankly don't understand why we're still discussing ID."

                                        I don't either. Nor do I understand why anyone feels the need to 'defend' evolution theory.

                                        Facts are unassailable. Theories will rise or fall based on the evidence and discovery of new facts. Personal beliefs are, well, personal -- not amenable to public discourse.

                                        We should recognize the differences between facts, theories and personal beliefs.

                                        • 1 vote
                                        #5.17 - Wed Jan 10, 2007 8:50 PM EST
                                        yarDeleted
                                        Adam Kemp

                                        Theories take observations and try to form general rules. It's that general rule (that gravity will pull matter together) which remains unproven.

                                        This isn't about whether gravity has existed or currently seems to be holding you down. It's about whether gravity can be generalized to a rule we can apply to the future. It can be, but not with absolute certainty. You can always prove that something did happen. The trick is proving that it will happen, and that's what science cannot do.

                                        • 8 votes
                                        #5.19 - Wed Jan 10, 2007 11:24 PM EST
                                        yarDeleted
                                        Adam Kemp

                                        Science isn't about "here and now", though. It's about taking "here and now" and trying to come up with rules that explain "there and later". Just as the fact that the grass outside my window is green, we can say with certainty that there is something holding us down to the Earth right now. That's not very useful information, though. What we need is rules for the future.

                                        That's why when I say "theory of gravity" I'm referring to the rule, not the current observation.

                                        • 4 votes
                                        #5.21 - Thu Jan 11, 2007 11:40 AM EST
                                        Jack Huang

                                        We should recognize the differences between facts, theories and personal beliefs.

                                        Precisely:

                                        Fact: There is cosmic background radiation
                                        Theory: Big Bang
                                        Personal Belief: God did [insert action]

                                        • 8 votes
                                        #5.22 - Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:07 PM EST
                                        yarDeleted
                                        Adam Kemp

                                        Yar: The "singularity" is a theoretical phenomenon predicted by our mathematical models. It's not just a "guess". I don't know why you seem ton confuse "singularity" with "the thing that caused the Big Bang". That's not at all what it means.

                                        • 6 votes
                                        #5.24 - Thu Jan 11, 2007 2:30 PM EST
                                        michaelj-or

                                        Adam...

                                        Is singularity the point at which the mathematical model ceases? Or does it mean something else?

                                        Thanks

                                          #5.25 - Thu Jan 11, 2007 2:42 PM EST
                                          Jason Coleman

                                          The singularity is the point at which the mathematical model goes to infinity. In this case, essentially, all the mass of the universe was in a single point (singularity). Due to this "jump," the math cannot show what was before, if anything. We deal with singularities in math elsewhere, so that's why it's not really a cause for physicists to think there's anything wrong with it. Further, our current understanding has that point with some (albeit tiny) dimension, thus not truly "dividing by zero." That's at least my best short-form description of the "big-bang singularity."

                                          Further, I'm not even talking about quantum mechanics and how it creates non-intuitive results, both in theory and in practice.

                                          • 7 votes
                                          #5.26 - Thu Jan 11, 2007 2:54 PM EST
                                          yarDeleted
                                          Adam Kemp

                                          Yar: Again, the singularity is not a theory explaining why the Big Bang happened. It's not a cause. It would make no sense to postulate the singularity as an explanation for the Big Bang. All it is is what Jason Coleman just described: the theoretical results of a mathematical model. They didn't invent something and then go looking for a model to show that it was possible. They built a model based on observations and the singularity is a prediction made from that model.

                                          • 6 votes
                                          #5.28 - Thu Jan 11, 2007 4:12 PM EST
                                          yarDeleted
                                          Jason Coleman

                                          essentially, all the mass of the universe was in a single point (singularity).

                                          yar: I didn't write my lay-person's description of what "singularity" means in this context with the hopes of using to explain the causation of the big-bang. It's really not a concrete-enough definition to use for that sort of reasoning. I am not a physicist nor a teacher of physics or math (just a big fan of both since they make my day job possible). The fact that the entire observable universe was at the point of a pin is the result of observing space as it exists today and calculating it back to where it began. Much like an impact point can show a forensic scientist where the gun must have been fired from, theoretical physicists modeled the universe and determined that there was what we are referring to as a singularity. No, it is not possible from that to predict what was going on before, just as that bullet hole can't tell you how the gun got to where it was fired from (let alone why it was fired). That is not to say that we will not or cannot know, just that this particular method of modeling isn't saying.

                                          • 6 votes
                                          #5.30 - Thu Jan 11, 2007 4:44 PM EST
                                          yarDeleted
                                          Adam Kemp

                                          I think we're talking about "cause" in a different way. What I meant was that the singularity is not something that explains the Big Bang. The singularity was the thing that went "bang". The cause is probably some yet-unknown physical law.

                                          • 6 votes
                                          #5.32 - Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:07 PM EST
                                          Jason Coleman

                                          yar: Okay, here's my point: please don't get caught up in the details of my poor analogy when this wasn't even the point of Adam's article. It's a valid discussion, just not one I really want to further right here as I feel like I've already side-tracked the comments enough on my own.

                                          • 2 votes
                                          #5.33 - Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:10 PM EST
                                          yarDeleted
                                          Jack Huang

                                          This is conjecture, not fact.

                                          True, but at least this conjecture is based on observed phenomena, was proposed as a result of facts, and can be factually challenged. Can you ever begin to say that about supernatural creation?

                                          But, forget about quibbling about singularity theory.

                                          I was disputing AK's point that "the entire universe(singularity) did not cause the big bang.
                                          If it did not, then a non natural force had to be present.

                                          Herein lies a fundamental problem with yar's point of view. Even though, when pressed about it, yar says "I'm only saying 'maybe God did it' and am open to other ideas," I see a very strong implication that he still thinks there's a strict dichotomy between "science can completely explain the whole thing in detail" and "it's gotta be supernatural."

                                          That is, if we can't perfectly explain whatever was at the beginning, "then a non natural force had to be present."

                                          As long as we're still debating such a view, the debate can go precisely nowhere.

                                          It's the same thing that ancient people used to "explain" lightning, seasonal flooding, the changing of the seasons, etc:
                                          "Well, we can't explain it using concrete trains of thought, so there's got to be a non natural force/being present."
                                          I doubt anyone would say that explaining the seasons using deities eating pomegranate seeds is logical. But, yar's position is no different.

                                          • 7 votes
                                          #5.35 - Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:00 PM EST
                                          Jason Coleman

                                          With my very limited knowledge of this area of physics, I suspect that since gravity is such a weak force compared to other natural forces, gravity played little role at the beginning of the universe (as we know it, WRT the "big bang" theory). The rapid expansion was far more than gravity could counter-act. I think it was around a billiion years before gravity began to cause things to attract back together in clouds to form galaxies.

                                          • 2 votes
                                          #5.36 - Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:00 PM EST
                                          yarDeleted
                                          yarDeleted
                                          Adam Kemp

                                          FYI, Hawking talks a lot about the issue of gravity and how various theories would imply a "big crunch" versus a stable Universe versus an ever-expanding Universe ending in heat death in A Brief History of Time and (I think) The Universe in a Nutshell.

                                          • 5 votes
                                          #5.39 - Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:33 PM EST
                                          yarDeleted
                                          michaelj-or

                                          Well I am glad I asked.

                                          Adam... is the point of your article that every conclusion based upon "Science" is actually only a theory, or part of a theory... because Science can not actually prove its conclusions?

                                          • 1 vote
                                          #5.41 - Thu Jan 11, 2007 7:44 PM EST
                                          Adam Kemp

                                          Yes. The scientific method cannot prove a theory.

                                          • 4 votes
                                          #5.42 - Thu Jan 11, 2007 8:54 PM EST
                                          Jack Huang

                                          yar, it is no secret that you frequently interchange "supernatural creation" and "God did it."
                                          Further, your point is far more complex than "it COULD have been SUPERNATURAL."
                                          Your repeated deriding of FSM is the quintessential case in point.

                                          You entirely reject it (without addressing it, might I add), but it's also a "valid" (not disproven) supernatural idea.

                                          Absent a natural explanation, it COULD have been SUPERNATURAL.Not ever "must".

                                          With all due respect, you just absolutely contradicted your comment of:

                                          I was disputing AK's point that "the entire universe(singularity) did not cause the big bang.
                                          If it did not, then a non natural force had to be present.

                                          Which is it? Pick one, and please, please, please stick to it.

                                          Your latest point here is nice and something I think we all agree with, but it flies in the face of what you've said before, for a long, long time.

                                          • 7 votes
                                          #5.43 - Fri Jan 12, 2007 1:02 AM EST
                                          michaelj-or

                                          Dear Commentors...

                                          @ Adam... Thank you for helping me understand.

                                          Can Science prove anything then? Are you of the view that Science is for giving us the theories and should be accepted for that purpose... but perhaps not be used for other purposes?

                                          @ Jack (my friend) Huang...

                                          Could you help me understand... because I am newbie here... what yar said before, for a long, long time... that flies in the face of what he said here much more recently? There's a lot of "History" in the background here... and I don't know what it is.

                                          Thank you both.

                                            #5.44 - Fri Jan 12, 2007 9:00 PM EST
                                            Adam Kemp

                                            Can Science prove anything then?

                                            I couldn't have stated this any clearer in the article:

                                            Science never proves anything. Ever. Let me repeat that with different emphasis: Science never proves anything.

                                            Are you of the view that Science is for giving us the theories and should be accepted for that purpose... but perhaps not be used for other purposes?

                                            I don't know which purposes you're thinking of, but I also made it pretty clear in the article that just because you can't prove something doesn't mean that the theory isn't useful. Even though we can't prove that gravity will work tomorrow, there's so much evidence that it will that we can safely assume it. Science has been incredibly useful, and I think it's safe to say that without science we would still be in the dark ages. We are nothing without science, and there's nothing better able to advance our civilization both in terms of knowledge and technology.

                                            • 3 votes
                                            #5.45 - Fri Jan 12, 2007 11:41 PM EST
                                            michaelj-or

                                            Thanks Adam...

                                            You could have said it clearer, because I did not get it from the article or you comments before you answered. I got it from this expanation you gave to me.

                                            Now about evidence.

                                            You didn't adddress that question.

                                            Will you... please? I want to hear your view.

                                            I am learning from you... but the class is not over yet. At least for me. Keep going.

                                              #5.46 - Fri Jan 12, 2007 11:59 PM EST
                                              Adam Kemp

                                              Umm...my new answer was literally a copy/paste from the article. It was exactly the same.

                                              I don't see a question about evidence anywhere.

                                                #5.47 - Sat Jan 13, 2007 12:11 AM EST
                                                michaelj-or

                                                But Adam... then what about evidence? So you can see the question.:)

                                                  #5.48 - Sat Jan 13, 2007 12:55 AM EST
                                                  spiffie

                                                  Please state the question again. I can't see what you're asking either.

                                                    #5.49 - Sat Jan 13, 2007 1:04 AM EST
                                                    michaelj-or

                                                    Okay.

                                                    Is evidence what supports the theory? Or is evidence what the theory supports?

                                                    Sorry if this did not explain it.

                                                    It is tricky... evidence is.

                                                    I know what evidence means to me. I was asking what it meant to Adam... and what it means to you Mr. spiffie... as you asked. :)

                                                      #5.50 - Sat Jan 13, 2007 1:21 AM EST
                                                      Adam Kemp

                                                      I don't understand how a theory could "support evidence". That doesn't make any sense.

                                                      Evidence supports theories. We find evidence, we make a theory that might explain that evidence, then we look for more evidence to support or reject that theory. Without some evidence there is no theory. We don't make up a theory out of the blue and then force the evidence to fit.

                                                      • 5 votes
                                                      #5.51 - Sat Jan 13, 2007 1:36 AM EST
                                                      spiffie

                                                      Observations support theory. If new observations are made that contradict current theory, then the theory is modified until it can explain all the current known observations.

                                                      • 1 vote
                                                      #5.52 - Sat Jan 13, 2007 1:37 AM EST
                                                      michaelj-or

                                                      Thanks...

                                                      @Adam...

                                                      You missed my point... Is evidence "found" to fit a theory? Have you seen any evidence of that or not in your lifetime?. Or is it solely in your experience that evidence found results in a theory we must accept?

                                                      When you didn't get my point .. I got an answer from you I wasn't expecting. Not that I wouldn't accept it. It was an answer that was way off base from your pemise.

                                                      So... don't ask me if my question was wrong so your question can be asked. Ask yourself why you can not understand why selective evidence could not be used to support theory. It has worked that way before... many times.

                                                      I was asking about "evidence". Its nature. And your view of it. Are you going to tell me your view of that?

                                                      I hope so because I like the way you explained it didn't work... when you don't go off course... so to speak. :)

                                                      So tell me.

                                                        #5.53 - Sat Jan 13, 2007 2:20 AM EST
                                                        Adam Kemp

                                                        I have no idea what you're talking about. Have I seen any evidence of what? Why would we ever be compelled to accept a theory? Are you asking if evidence ever contradicts theories? Or are you thinking of a specific theory (or theories)?

                                                        It sounds like you're trying to beat around the bush for something, and it's really confusing me (and I don't think I'm alone). Please just come out and say whatever it is you're trying to say so that we can understand you.

                                                        • 1 vote
                                                        #5.54 - Sat Jan 13, 2007 2:42 AM EST
                                                        Ryan Booker

                                                        I think he's asking "Do scientists ever selectively take evidence in support of a theory and ignore evidence that contradicts it?"

                                                        My answer would be: There are probably bad scientists that have done that. But on the whole, in light of peer review, continued criticism, observation and experimentation, these cases would be quickly remedied by the scientific community at large.

                                                        A theory that is contradicted by evidence will be either modified or discarded.

                                                        • 5 votes
                                                        #5.55 - Sat Jan 13, 2007 7:16 AM EST
                                                        michaelj-or

                                                        Thank you, Ryan Booker.

                                                          #5.56 - Sat Jan 13, 2007 3:19 PM EST
                                                          Jack Huang

                                                          michael:
                                                          yar's most recent point is

                                                          Absent a natural explanation, it COULD have been SUPERNATURAL.Not ever "must".

                                                          Supernatural could mean God, faries, FSM, anything not natural. It could mean superman.

                                                          This blatantly flies in the face of three points he has held steadfastly to in the past:
                                                          1. "God did it" is the extent of "supernatural creation" he is willing to discuss, to the point where he equates the point.
                                                          2. yar has never intelligently discussed FSM (which he now includes in his "it's maybe supernatural" stance), going so far as to ridicule it as a "strawman" and somehow not worthy of his precious attention.
                                                          3. Most importantly, yar has always couched his arguments in terms of "if science cannot entirely explain everything, then 'God did it' is 'logically' the default conclusion we make." This is much more an implication of "must" than "maybe."

                                                          Just the first two points, put together, diametrically contradict his new claim of "Supernatural could mean God, faries, FSM, anything not natural. It could mean superman." He obviously does not consider FSM even worthy of his consideration, and I doubt that he'd begin to accept it if I said "the creator of the universe wears red spandex tights."

                                                          The third point is just a mountain of icing on top.

                                                          • 6 votes
                                                          #5.57 - Sun Jan 14, 2007 6:36 PM EST
                                                          michaelj-or

                                                          Thank you Jack... I think I see the "history" now.

                                                          Is it that yar's point of view has changed a little...that is causing the angst?

                                                          If so I might give you and clearcache some credit for it. I would even give yar credit for some of it. I won't give myself any credit for anything like that except for having found a way to make friends, as you did, in an argument that often makes enemies.

                                                          Now I am glad to say it doesn't have to. That can be history too.

                                                          Quite honestly.. I have no clue who did it. I am only glad they... (or it did it to itself) did it.

                                                          Thank you Jack.

                                                          I don't understand FSM very well. I am slow on the uptake. Can you help me understand your thoughts on FSM?

                                                            #5.58 - Sun Jan 14, 2007 9:08 PM EST
                                                            yarDeleted
                                                            michaelj-or

                                                            Dear Jack...

                                                            That was not even helpful and worse yet I don't even understand. That was gooobledygook to me. And it worked.

                                                            Do you want to remake things... in your own understanding. Or understand us who are here. :O)

                                                            PS... If there is a theory you can give me that I can use... please send it.

                                                            But you did a good job of destroying what I was saying... even if you did not mean to.

                                                            I will come back to this tomorrow to tell you why.

                                                            Plus.... you didn't help me understand FSM.

                                                            Unless that was it. Was it?

                                                              #5.60 - Sun Jan 14, 2007 10:32 PM EST
                                                              iarnuocon

                                                              Michael

                                                              Flying Spaghetti Monster

                                                              Physical theories (all incomplete)

                                                              The Standard Model

                                                              String Theory

                                                              M Theory

                                                              • 2 votes
                                                              #5.61 - Sun Jan 14, 2007 10:56 PM EST
                                                              michaelj-or

                                                              Dear inuorcon...

                                                              Crashed and burned. Is that what you wanted?

                                                                #5.62 - Sun Jan 14, 2007 11:16 PM EST
                                                                Behind My Screen

                                                                jpark... if scientific theories are so unreliable for you, then I guess you are not comfortable with people using them to build things you use. I mean... what if the theory of gravity we have is some how wrong and that building you work in crumbles?

                                                                Yes, evolution and gravity are facts that are observed phenomena and our descriptions of how they operate are not facts, but that does not mean that we do not trust them once enough evidence has been shown through experimentation that we can use them to make things... like medicine, or machines, etc.

                                                                • 4 votes
                                                                #5.63 - Mon Jan 15, 2007 1:41 AM EST
                                                                iarnuocon

                                                                Crashed and burned. Is that what you wanted? Just trying to be helpful. You wanted "a theory you could use" and said you would like to know what FSM is. [grin]

                                                                • 2 votes
                                                                #5.64 - Mon Jan 15, 2007 7:08 AM EST
                                                                jpark

                                                                Behind My Screen,

                                                                I never said theories are unreliable. Only that there should be a clear distinction between theory and fact.

                                                                  #5.65 - Mon Jan 15, 2007 9:48 AM EST
                                                                  michaelj-or

                                                                  Yes... Thank you iarnuocon...

                                                                  Actually it is more like I have been collander-ized. Now I am a bunch of free-floating little particles in need of some gravity to pull myself together while I still remember where the pieces go.

                                                                  Thank you.

                                                                    #5.66 - Mon Jan 15, 2007 2:23 PM EST
                                                                    tedgarcia

                                                                    Jpark

                                                                    It's incredible that these supposedly intelligent people would maintain that gravity is a theory, instead of a fact. By the definition of these two words, only an irrational person would say that the two are the same.

                                                                     Issac Newton formulated the theory of universal gravitation. Yes, at Newton's time garvity was a theory, now it is called the "law of garvity". Why is it now called "law of gravity" instead of "theory of gravity", because the statement  "things fall down to earth(gravity)" is observable and invariable. If it's observable and invariable it is a fact.

                                                                    Conclusion: Evolution is a theory. Gravity is a fact.

                                                                      #5.67 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 11:00 AM EST
                                                                      Dan Hallo, aka, Zoilus

                                                                      Gravity is a fact, and has many theories that try to explain it.

                                                                       It's incredible that some, who claim to be intelligent people seem incapable of understanding that.

                                                                      I guess you don't have to be too short for something to be over your head.

                                                                      But this sounds like a similar, well known phenomenon that, if you accpet the logic of one, it would force you to accept the logic of the other, and so, in order to maintain your delusion, you have to reject both.

                                                                      Gravity, Music, Math, Evolution.. all fact, all have theories. 

                                                                      • 2 votes
                                                                      #5.68 - Fri Jan 9, 2009 12:27 PM EST
                                                                      Adam Kemp

                                                                      Newton's theories of gravity have been disproved. Clearly "law" doesn't mean what you think it does. You're so obviously wrong that it's embarassing.

                                                                      • 1 vote
                                                                      #5.69 - Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:50 AM EST
                                                                      Reply
                                                                      voodooDeleted
                                                                      Mikael A

                                                                      Good article. I'm not sure who you are trying to make this point to though. It seems almost like a lash out at the science community.

                                                                        Reply#7 - Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:37 AM EST
                                                                        bestia

                                                                        "Science never proves anything"

                                                                        OK, so what? Science can be used to, say, make drugs that cure polio. I don't care if science does not prove anything, as long as it can do good things for us.

                                                                        Besides, if you say that science never proves anything and if this really annoys you, you should say if there's something else that "always proves everything".

                                                                          Reply#8 - Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:46 AM EST
                                                                          Adam Kemp

                                                                          I think you misinterpreted the article. I'm not attacking science. I'm arguing against those who propose alternatives to scientific theories on the basis that the theory hasn't been "proved". My argument is that nothing in science has been proved, so it doesn't make sense to pick out one or two theories and replace them on that basis.

                                                                          This is a pro-science article.

                                                                          • 8 votes
                                                                          #8.1 - Wed Jan 10, 2007 3:13 PM EST
                                                                          tedgarcia

                                                                          Mr.Kemp, you argued that noting in science has been proven. Well, tell me if science has not proven that gravity is the attraction of objects towards the earth?   

                                                                            #8.2 - Sat Jan 10, 2009 5:03 PM EST
                                                                            Adam Kemp

                                                                            Well, tell me if science has not proven that gravity is the attraction of objects towards the earth?  

                                                                            No, science has not proven that.

                                                                            • 1 vote
                                                                            #8.3 - Sat Jan 10, 2009 9:52 PM EST
                                                                            tedgarcia

                                                                            Adam Kemp " - - - - Still, technically it is unproved '. 

                                                                            You are so intent on proving your point strictyly on technicalities, like science never proved anything. I guess that's why you think that garvity is "just a theory". You reject the definition of fact when referring to gravity, even if the definition fits gravity.

                                                                            Yes, a zillion observation is limited,  but it's almost humanly impossible to perform such number of observations and thus a zillion seems infinite. Since the time of Newton's formulation of the Theory of garvity, there could have been a ziilion times that gravity has been  observed with  invariable results., yet you won't admit that gravity is a fact.  oh Yes, yes, technically it's just a theory. Bull!!! Now, how many more observations   do you need to conclude that gravity is a fact, NOT "just a theory"? Maybe you just want to impress us with your knowledge of science. Well, I would be more impressed if you talk in a practical manner.  Telling me to prove something that's in the future is just ridiculous. Telling me that tommorrow things might start floating is just,  - - - -I don't know. It's just not a normal thinking, it's stupid!!!

                                                                              #8.4 - Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:33 PM EST
                                                                              spiffie

                                                                              It's not a technicality.  It's actually a central concept in the philosophy of science.  

                                                                              • 1 vote
                                                                              #8.5 - Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:05 PM EST
                                                                              Adam Kemp

                                                                              Yes, a zillion observation is limited,  but it's almost humanly impossible to perform such number of observations and thus a zillion seems infinite.

                                                                              It may seem infinite, but it's not. That's why we can have very high confidence in these theories (enough to call them facts). What we can't do, though, is say that they are proven, because "proof" is a much stronger concept. Proof means it must be true. When you prove something you are saying that it is impossible for that thing to be false. We cannot say that it is impossible for gravity to work differently than we think it does, no matter how many observations we make. Empirical observation just can't prove things like that.

                                                                              ...yet you won't admit that gravity is a fact.

                                                                              For the last time, I don't believe fact and theory are mutually exclusive. I do believe gravity is a fact, just as I believe that evolution is a fact, and yet both of those are also theories.

                                                                              Telling me to prove something that's in the future is just ridiculous.

                                                                              I agree it's ridiculous, so imagine my confusion when you insist that it has already been proven. How can something be proven when you admit that it's "ridiculous" to prove something about the future? That's my whole point. It is theoretically possible that there is something innate in physics that makes gravity suddenly stop working after a certain amount of time. I don't think that's likely, which is why I still think our equations are at least mostly right, but if it's even possible then we can't call our theory "proven".

                                                                              And for the record, I'm not trying to impress anyone. I just want people to understand the foundation of science. If there is just one thing that everyone should know about how sciene works, this is it. This is the most important piece of information that anyone could learn about the scientific method because everything in science is built on top of it. If you don't understand this then you can't possibly understand how scientists operate. And the reason I care so much is because a lot of the attacks on scientific theories like evolution actually rely on peoples' misunderstanding of this most basic part of science. If you could only understand this then maybe you'll see why all these "evolution is just a theory" attacks are completely bogus.

                                                                              • 1 vote
                                                                              #8.6 - Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:38 PM EST
                                                                              tedgarcia

                                                                              OK mr. Kemp, I admit I don't understand how scientists operate. At any rate, I still  maintain that it's ridiculous to ask someone to prove something that has not yet happened, like " could you prove that tomorrow things will not float"?

                                                                              Finally, you said it, " I do believe gravity is a fact, just as  - - - - ".  I'm  glad that you realize that at some point you have to be more realistic than scientific.   

                                                                              MR. Kemp, thanks for enlightening us about science. 

                                                                                #8.7 - Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:21 PM EST
                                                                                Adam Kemp

                                                                                At any rate, I still  maintain that it's ridiculous to ask someone to prove something that has not yet happened, like " could you prove that tomorrow things will not float"?

                                                                                So do I. That's my whole point. Why do I have to keep repeating myself? It is ridiculous, which is why I insist that gravity is a theory. If it was proven then it wouldn't be ridiculous to ask what will happen in the future with respect to gravity, but clearly you agree that it is, and so clearly you must agree that gravity is still just a theory. Stop acting like I'm saying you should be able to predict the future. My whole point in asking the question was to get you to realize that it's impossible.

                                                                                Finally, you said it, " I do believe gravity is a fact,

                                                                                I said this long ago. Obviously you still haven't read the article, because I said that in the article itself (written 2 years ago last Friday), as well as in comments #1.19, #1.26, #5.4, and #8.6. Why do you still pretend that I ever claimed otherwise? I have made it very clear that the whole point of the article is to do away with the idea that "fact" and "theory" are mutually exclusive.

                                                                                Evolution is a theory, yes. But it is also a fact just as much as gravity is a fact. You just need to stop thinking of fact as some mythical proven absolute knowledge. There's no such thing. The best we can hope for is knowing something with enough confidence that it would be madness to reject it.

                                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                                #8.8 - Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:54 PM EST
                                                                                Reply
                                                                                Pier JohnsonDeleted
                                                                                Pier JohnsonDeleted
                                                                                MasterNav

                                                                                Interesting article - and fairly well thought out Adam. However you apparently have left out the applied sciences in your paradigm, which seems to dwell only in the realm of the theoretical sciences. Perhaps as a means to keep the article small enough to post! You also did not address the claimed laws of science: Thermodynamics, Kepler's laws of planetary motion, Joule, Newtonian, conservation, quantum, et al, and the various principles like Heisenberg and Archimedes.

                                                                                None of these are regarded as theory but all have to one extent or another been refined over time through observation and analysis. If your main thesis was actually correct (as opposed to essentially correct within the confines of theoretical science) we could not in good faith pursue engineering. But since science has concluded that certain effects have substantial enough regularity to call laws, we can. Once laws are established, they can be leveraged to develop and engineer technology and mechanical devices. But, and this must be emphasized, this does not meet your requirement of the application of an infinite number of tests to ensure absolute validity, and therefore non-theoretical status.

                                                                                It is a fundamental error in semantics on both sides of this belief/science argument that Science is a complete, coherent and congruent methodology, which is the monumental disservice of incomplete and generalised college and high school education. The sciences (a more appropriate reference) represent a diverse and incidentally interrelated group of disciplines, about which there are several prominent theories which attempt to characterize the nature of scientific behaviors. Thomas Kuhn is one such who theorized that scientific evolution (with a given discipline) is non-linear. That each new development requires a revolution within the discipline to ascend to a new paradigm from the old. This theory has both adherents and challengers. But it is intriguing. Some of the problems we face are the requirements of language specialization and there being no true way of translating accurately specialized language into common vernacular.

                                                                                • 2 votes
                                                                                Reply#11 - Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:33 PM EST
                                                                                spiffie

                                                                                Actually, you're just wrong. All of them are regarded as theories, they just use the "older" (and less correct) terminology of "law" because they are traditionally called those names. All of them are falsifiable. All of them are subject to revision.

                                                                                • 7 votes
                                                                                #11.1 - Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:07 PM EST
                                                                                tmartin

                                                                                Yup - spiffie is spot on. Every experimental test has some degree of uncertainty associated with it; whether this due to experimental/observational error or a result of a flawed hypothesis (i.e., a flawed underlying theory) is impossible to say. For this reason 'proving' absolutely a theory correct by experiment is impossible. All that can be said is that results match predictions well and derived hypotheses from theories also match observation.

                                                                                You also mentioned Newton's gravitational stuff. This is another example of a 'law' (thanks to the Enlightenment, any mathematically elegant theory in physics is called a law...) that has since been shown to be incorrect, or at least incomplete. This is the point the article is trying to make about induction being perfectly well able to falsify existing hypotheses.

                                                                                On the other hand, I do agree with you loosely speaking. The predictions made by certain theories match observation so precisely that it is hard to see them as being anything other than proved. Although the article implies that we can't be sure that there'll still be a gravitational field around the Earth tomorrow, I'm not very nervous about floating off into space when I wake up tomorrow morning. These predictions are so well tested and have been known for so long that they are as good as proved -- but they never can be absolutely proved, and this is the point of the article.

                                                                                • 6 votes
                                                                                #11.2 - Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:21 PM EST
                                                                                Jason Coleman

                                                                                However you apparently have left out the applied sciences in your paradigm, which seems to dwell only in the realm of the theoretical sciences.

                                                                                As a card-carrying member of the "applied sciences," I have no problem being left out and found Adam's article to be a very good explanation of what "theory" means to the true science. The theorists tell us that their theory or model is correct and we, as engineers, are then able to build upon it.

                                                                                Newton's so-called "laws" are not entirely accurate descriptions of gravity, yet those models work so well that I can rely on them everyday to perform my work (and do). F = m·a every time thus far and likely will tomorrow, regardless of the fact that general relativity is a better explanation of why (although still far from being proven).

                                                                                The predictions made by certain theories match observation so precisely that it is hard to see them as being anything other than proved.

                                                                                And many of those theories get elevated to (or left as) the status of law, even though it is, in the strictest sense, incorrect to call them that. Of course, I think you got right to that, tmartin.

                                                                                • 5 votes
                                                                                #11.3 - Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:45 PM EST
                                                                                Reply
                                                                                Jimmy Pan

                                                                                Science - the art of forming and refining educated guesses about the way reality works.

                                                                                • 2 votes
                                                                                Reply#12 - Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:21 PM EST
                                                                                Kathy Gill

                                                                                Adam, very nicely done!

                                                                                • 2 votes
                                                                                Reply#13 - Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:36 PM EST
                                                                                JoulesBeef

                                                                                I often repeat what i once heard a prof of mine say.
                                                                                "Science is only about disproving things" and that is one thing it does very well
                                                                                It is also why i have such faith in the consensus on the science of global warming.
                                                                                You can see it in the science forums, first hand, but as soon as anyone says they have discovered something(described something), you have thousands of the most brilliant people on the planet trying to prove you wrong.
                                                                                It is a dreaded step being published. You want to make sure you have every obvious I doted and every obvious t crossed. Last think you want is for a quick dismissal of your theory for something stupid.
                                                                                That is also why id isnt a science, science offers a description where id offers an answer.
                                                                                sorry brain drift high today.

                                                                                • 9 votes
                                                                                Reply#14 - Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:47 PM EST
                                                                                Jason Coleman

                                                                                It is a dreaded step being published.

                                                                                You know, that's rarely pointed out, but yet so true. Nothing quite like a peer review to bring an author down a couple of pegs. It's also evidence that science is much bigger than any one scientist and that's one of the main reasons it works for us so well.

                                                                                • 10 votes
                                                                                #14.1 - Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:57 PM EST
                                                                                Moon In Blue Water

                                                                                Yes, there was some confusion in yar's comment earlier, in which he said science is peer review. Peer review is not science, it is part of the modern practice of implementing the scientific method, it's purpose primarily being to validate experimental, observational, and reasoning procesess to ensure that conclusions drawn from them are valid. It is a quality control step, not the substance itself.

                                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                                #14.2 - Sat Jan 13, 2007 11:45 AM EST
                                                                                Reply
                                                                                MichaelE

                                                                                I enjoyed reading this. It was well written, and well thought out. It even changed my view on science a little.
                                                                                Thanks Adam.

                                                                                • 3 votes
                                                                                Reply#15 - Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:52 PM EST
                                                                                rryyyaannn

                                                                                Let me repeat that with different emphasis: Science never proves anything.

                                                                                Of course in the most basic of senses this statement is true. But in reality we have to move theories into fact in order for science to move ahead. If scientist practiced exactly what you are saying we would get no where. Everyone would still be looking for that instance where the laws of gravity do not apply.

                                                                                • 2 votes
                                                                                Reply#16 - Wed Jan 10, 2007 3:34 PM EST
                                                                                spiffie

                                                                                Everyone still is looking for those instances where gravity does not apply (or at least where everything we know about it goes haywire). We don't have a complete understanding of gravity, which is one of the reasons we haven't been able to come up with a consistent, complete "theory of everything" yet.

                                                                                • 2 votes
                                                                                #16.1 - Wed Jan 10, 2007 3:40 PM EST
                                                                                Adam Kemp

                                                                                That was the point of my conclusion. Despite the fact that we can't prove anything, we can still know enough to make safe assumptions. Science has shown itself to be incredibly useful despite the fact that it can't possibly prove anything.

                                                                                • 5 votes
                                                                                #16.2 - Wed Jan 10, 2007 3:54 PM EST
                                                                                rryyyaannn

                                                                                Yes I understand that completely trust me. I suppose I should have used a better example I'm not here to argue the nature of gravity and the role it plays in our universe and time. I was just simply stating that in order for science to progress, at times there has to be a consensus. For example people once beleived that light traveled through an aether. After the Michelson Morley experiment and Einsteins paper "On the Electrodynamics of Moving Bodies" we all know and accept for all practicle purposes light travels at 670 million miles per hour. Whether you chase after it, it chases after you, you run away from it or you stand still the speed is always constant.

                                                                                • 2 votes
                                                                                #16.3 - Wed Jan 10, 2007 3:56 PM EST
                                                                                spiffie

                                                                                It depends on what a person is trying to do. A pure theoretical physicist is always going to be interested in those questions for which we don't have a good understanding. An applied physicist is more likely to take certain bits of knowledge we have demonstrated as "good enough" for all practical purposes and use those in his or her work. An engineer is very likely to take virtually everything as "good enough" for the purposes of building a bridge (or whatever).

                                                                                The more a person is interested in completing actual physical work within the world, the more he or she is likely to draw a line in the sand, "This result is good enough for my purposes." That doesn't mean the understanding of the phenomena is perfect, just that we can use our imperfect understanding for practical purposes. We can use our practical understanding and still advance the theoretical underpinnings.

                                                                                • 3 votes
                                                                                #16.4 - Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:05 PM EST
                                                                                Jason Coleman

                                                                                An engineer is very likely to take virtually everything as "good enough" for the purposes of building a bridge (or whatever).

                                                                                I *heart* that example, save for one thing: engineers design bridges. Contractors build them.

                                                                                But yes, "good enough" is the mantra of the engineer. If everything had to be proven beyond all doubt, you'd not have a computer in front of you while sitting in a dark cave.

                                                                                • 2 votes
                                                                                #16.5 - Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:23 PM EST
                                                                                rryyyaannn

                                                                                It depends on what a person is trying to do. A pure theoretical physicist is always going to be interested in those questions for which we don't have a good understanding. An applied physicist is more likely to take certain bits of knowledge we have demonstrated as "good enough" for all practical purposes and use those in his or her work. An engineer is very likely to take virtually everything as "good enough" for the purposes of building a bridge (or whatever).

                                                                                The more a person is interested in completing actual physical work within the world, the more he or she is likely to draw a line in the sand, "This result is good enough for my purposes." That doesn't mean the understanding of the phenomena is perfect, just that we can use our imperfect understanding for practical purposes. We can use our practical understanding and still advance the theoretical underpinnings.

                                                                                This is effectively what I am trying to say. So thank you good night.

                                                                                • 2 votes
                                                                                #16.6 - Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:38 PM EST
                                                                                Reply
                                                                                yarDeleted
                                                                                categorythree

                                                                                I was taught this fun statistic thing called hypothesis testing!
                                                                                Would not using gravity lens to observe distant objects help to prove that any other force other than gravity is not at work?
                                                                                Oh I get it your just trying to say that, as one other commentator stated, in theory gravity is a constant that has no parameters, but yet we use gravity in an applied fashion to sling satellites and other such space craft in deep in our solar system. So in theory gravity is, well, just some words on paper, but in reality this force can be utilized, as in making keystone bridges, force on the apex of an arch. It is reducible that all efforts by man are just crappy words or supposition, theories, etc... That are in essence the tools by which we have devised civilization...

                                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                                Reply#18 - Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:20 PM EST
                                                                                chucks

                                                                                Adam, your description of inductive reasoning is pretty loose. There are two necessary conditions that must be satisfied in an inductive proof.

                                                                                1. There must be a BASE CASE and proof that the conjecture is true for the BASE CASE.
                                                                                2. There must be a SUCCESSOR RULE that describes how to generate SUCCESSOR CASES from the BASE CASE.

                                                                                Inductive proof is obtained when it can be shown that the SUCCESSOR RULE is true and that the conjecture is true when applied to the SUCCESSOR RULE thereby proving the conjecture is true in all SUCCESSOR CASES.

                                                                                The difficult part of formulating an inductive proof is defining the SUCCESSOR RULE. In mathematical terms this requires the imposition of a partial order on the base case and the successors. In many cases a partial order for physical phenomena can only be defined using the axis of time. The scientist must narrowly define the environment to be equivalent in all aspects except the aspect of time and the physical result to be measured or observed. In other words, the only variables allowed are time and the phenomenon being measured. Proof is obtained when it can be shown that a result different from the conjectured result would require an environment that is different from the defined environment or would violate the partial ordering of successor cases (i.e. causality when time is defined as the ordering device.)

                                                                                Evolutionary theory and intelligent design theory differ in one very important respect. Intelligent design posits a fixed, absolute base case, the act of creation, where evolution uses a relative base case of sometime in the physically recorded past. Where physical record may be the fossil record or an objective experimental record. It is much easier to prove the plausibility of evolution because the environment can be narrowly defined by setting an appropriate base case. I say plausibility because the time span and number of environmental factors required for evolutionary processes requires the use of statistical processes. Because intelligent design has an absolute base case it is practically impossible to prove because doing so would require proving that the base case exists and is true. You would have to have proof of the creation event.

                                                                                The claims of evolutionary theory are more modest than the claims of intelligent design theory and evolutionary theory can demonstrate both a base case that is proven and a successor rule that generates successor cases consistent with the theory. Intelligent design theory fails to satisfy both conditions for inductive proof because it lacks proof of a base case.

                                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                                Reply#19 - Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:43 PM EST
                                                                                spiffie

                                                                                You are mistakenly conflating inductive reasoning with mathematical induction. They are not precisely the same.

                                                                                • 6 votes
                                                                                #19.1 - Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:26 PM EST
                                                                                Adam Kemp

                                                                                spiffie is right. Inductive reasoning is not the same as Mathematical induction. The latter is actually a method of proving things, while the former can only disprove or fail to disprove things.

                                                                                • 6 votes
                                                                                #19.2 - Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:31 PM EST
                                                                                UKMattDeleted
                                                                                Reply
                                                                                songbird6

                                                                                I think you make some excellent points in this article regarding what a theory is and isn't and what science can and can't do for us, but I think you've crossed into the realm of philosophy:

                                                                                Some people find this unsettling. If nothing can be proved then how can we know anything? What good is science? The problem is that people are wanting more from science than we actually need. We don't need to know that gravity always works. We just need to be confident that it works under given circumstances. After enough successful tests a theory may be considered a fact in practicality, even when it is not technically proved correct.

                                                                                Doubts about the absolute reality and whether something is always true are questions of metaphysics. You are correct that "the only thing you can prove by dropping something is that gravity worked for that test." Reproducibility can support initial hypotheses, but it can never produce an absolute truth. As you point out, that is impossible to know.

                                                                                However, in saying gravity or evolution or any theory can't be proved, I think you're confusing "proving" with finding absolute truth. To prove is to demonstrate the validity of your theory. However, that's just a semantic difference between the questions of science and metaphysics. I do get your points.

                                                                                  Reply#20 - Thu Jan 11, 2007 3:50 PM EST
                                                                                  Adam Kemp

                                                                                  In this case the "theory" is a generalized rule that can be used to predict the results of future tests. In that sense, the theory is not proved, nor can it be. I see little difference between "proving" something and "finding absolute truth".

                                                                                  I try not to get in discussions about metaphysics because they're generally just a lot of word games and twisted logic resulting in arbitrary conclusions. I try to stick to what we can infer from our experiences. To me, talking about things that are inherently untestable is a waste of time.

                                                                                  • 2 votes
                                                                                  #20.1 - Thu Jan 11, 2007 4:16 PM EST
                                                                                  categorythree

                                                                                  gravity lens!

                                                                                    #20.2 - Fri Jan 12, 2007 9:50 PM EST
                                                                                    Reply
                                                                                    juxtaposition

                                                                                    Adam -

                                                                                    I'm astounded at the amount of angst you got from an article that was extremely well thought out and constructed, and should have been mollifying to anyone on any side of any debate regarding scientific theories.

                                                                                    While reading the article it occurred to me that I don't know whether I've ever used the word proof in place of the word evidence, but I will be watching out for that in the future.

                                                                                    Thanks.

                                                                                    • 3 votes
                                                                                    Reply#21 - Mon Jan 15, 2007 4:40 PM EST
                                                                                    michaelj-or

                                                                                    Well... Mr juxtaposition...

                                                                                    Nothing I said was angst.

                                                                                    For the record. :)

                                                                                      #21.1 - Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:56 AM EST
                                                                                      Reply
                                                                                      Ansab

                                                                                      In science, though, it is literally impossible to make every possible observation to prove a rule. Therefore, it is also impossible to prove any theory in science. Every conclusion science has ever made is an unproved theory, including gravity.

                                                                                      And didn't Einstein say something like, "a thousand experiments cannot prove me right, but one can prove me wrong"?

                                                                                      Great article

                                                                                      • 4 votes
                                                                                      Reply#22 - Wed Jan 17, 2007 12:51 AM EST
                                                                                      (DrZ) Zeb CameronDeleted
                                                                                      (DrZ) Zeb CameronDeleted
                                                                                      redacted-

                                                                                      F = GMm/R²

                                                                                      The equation assumes mass is concentrated at the center of an object to simplify the math. Your assertion that "every object in the Universe" would need to be tested in order to prove gravity is absurd.

                                                                                      Since the equation assumes mass is centric, the equation is true for all mass centric objects. Non-mass centric objects would require a different formula. If your statement is "All objects in the universe would require centric mass analysis" then to that I would agree.

                                                                                      Gravity itself conforms to universal law proven by math formula. Variations in this formula can only occur with variations in objects without a centric mass. Good luck finding one.

                                                                                      • 1 vote
                                                                                      Reply#25 - Sun Jun 8, 2008 2:45 PM EDT
                                                                                      Adam Kemp

                                                                                      The sad thing (that you apparently don't know) is that the theory you gave is Newton's equation, which we now know is flawed. You are trying to use an example of something that's been proved when in fact it's an example of something that's been proved false.

                                                                                      You're still not understanding the fundamental problem. It's not that this equation is proved true for all "mass centric objects". It's not proved true for anything. Observations supported it for a long time...until they didn't. Eventually we found situations that equation did not properly predict. The observations did not fit the theory. Therefore, the theory was disproved.

                                                                                      It was then the goal of scientists to figure out what was wrong with it. They needed to figure out why it works in some cases but not all and adjust the theory to compensate for the differences. The difference had nothing to do with whether the objects were "mass centric". It turned out to be the speed of the objects in relation to each other. Einstein found that mass actually changes with speed.

                                                                                      The thing you apparently missed (which is the central point of the whole article) is that no finite number of observations can possibly prove a theory true. You may reproduce an experiment a million times or a billion times with the exact same result, but your findings will still be subject to disproof so long as there is the mere possibility of a future experiment finding a different result. Since it is literally impossible to run the experiment an infinite number of times (accounting for every possible variable, including time itself) it is therefore impossible to prove the theory based on observation. Not hard, but impossible. Every scientist knows this, but most non-scientists don't.

                                                                                      • 4 votes
                                                                                      #25.1 - Mon Jun 9, 2008 12:40 AM EDT
                                                                                      redacted-

                                                                                      That was the point. Newton "proved" the Theory correct. Subsequent observations "disproved" it. And the current theory is 'proven" until it is "disproved".

                                                                                      I think you get it.

                                                                                        #25.2 - Mon Jun 9, 2008 1:24 PM EDT
                                                                                        Jack Huang

                                                                                        Newton "proved" the Theory correct.

                                                                                        No, he didn't. He demonstrated that the theory adequately fit the observations he made.

                                                                                        And the current theory is 'proven" until it is "disproved".

                                                                                        No, it isn't. No theory is ever proven. It really doesn't get simpler than that.

                                                                                        • 4 votes
                                                                                        #25.3 - Mon Jun 9, 2008 4:09 PM EDT
                                                                                        Ryan Booker

                                                                                        Newton did not prove the theory. Newton showed that that theory explained all known observations and facts. That is not proving the theory. It is failing to disprove it. There is a difference.

                                                                                        • 4 votes
                                                                                        #25.4 - Mon Jun 9, 2008 4:11 PM EDT
                                                                                        Adam Kemp

                                                                                        If Newton "proved" that the theory was correct then it doesn't make sense that someone else could prove that it was incorrect. Don't you see the contradiction there? It's either true or false. It can't be both. Proof is final. If someone proves that a theory is true then that means that the theory is and will always be true. It's proved. That's what the word means.

                                                                                        • 3 votes
                                                                                        #25.5 - Mon Jun 9, 2008 9:31 PM EDT
                                                                                        redacted-

                                                                                        Adam that happens all the time. Read 1.7.

                                                                                        Every time an observation is made to confirm a theory that action "proves" the theory is correct.

                                                                                        In addition to 1.7, read;

                                                                                        "Soon after, in 1846, that planet, which was later called Neptune, was discovered. Newton's Theory of Gravity had been proven once again, but it didn't explain a few oddities in the orbit of Mercury, the planet closest to the Sun"

                                                                                        http://www.abc.net.au/science/k2/moments/gmis9736.htm

                                                                                          #25.6 - Mon Jun 9, 2008 11:08 PM EDT
                                                                                          redacted-

                                                                                          Adam

                                                                                          I never stated one could prove and disprove a theory simultaneously. Theories that are proven can only be disproven when observations change.

                                                                                          You're digging. Want a bigger shovel????

                                                                                            #25.7 - Mon Jun 9, 2008 11:16 PM EDT
                                                                                            Jack Huang

                                                                                            Every time an observation is made to confirm a theory that action "proves" the theory is correct.

                                                                                            Funny how you're arguing that "prove" is a legitimate descriptor, yet persist in putting it in quotes.

                                                                                            Theories that are proven can only be disproven when observations change.

                                                                                            To put it bluntly, you're entirely wrong, no matter how much you try to arm-twist the definition of "prove."

                                                                                            • 3 votes
                                                                                            #25.8 - Mon Jun 9, 2008 11:43 PM EDT
                                                                                            Adam Kemp

                                                                                            A theory cannot be proved true one day and then disproved the next day. Proved means it's true forever. It cannot be true forever and then false one day. That's a contradiction. It's either true forever or it's false forever. Disproving a theory reveals that it was wrong all along. Proving it is impossible because there is always the possibility that it will be disproved. Theories have two states: disproved (proved false) or not disproved. There is no "proved true". Period.

                                                                                            • 3 votes
                                                                                            #25.9 - Tue Jun 10, 2008 12:09 AM EDT
                                                                                            Reply
                                                                                            Arbitrary Intelligence

                                                                                            Why is it that religion and the theory of evolution cannot co-exist?

                                                                                            • 1 vote
                                                                                            Reply#26 - Mon Jun 9, 2008 5:14 PM EDT
                                                                                            jpark

                                                                                            Oh, it can. In fact, it should.

                                                                                            Unfortunately, there are people who use the theory of evolution as a tool to suppress religious expression.

                                                                                            Science should not be so devalued as to be misused in that manner.

                                                                                            Sucks, doesn't it?

                                                                                            • 2 votes
                                                                                            #26.1 - Mon Jun 9, 2008 5:17 PM EDT
                                                                                            Jack Huang

                                                                                            Oh, it can. In fact, it should.

                                                                                            It absolutely can.

                                                                                            Unfortunately, there are people who use the theory of evolution as a tool to suppress religious expression.

                                                                                            Though these number near zero compared to the religious fanatics who seek to stifle science for the glory of their own petty beliefs.

                                                                                            • 4 votes
                                                                                            #26.2 - Mon Jun 9, 2008 5:20 PM EDT
                                                                                            Arbitrary Intelligence

                                                                                            I am a Christian, but my view of science and my view of the Christian Faith do not contradict. I tend to think that the truth of human origin lies somewhere between the Garden of Eden and the theory of evolution. Why is it so sacrilegious from a Christian standpoint? Of course I believe the story of Adam and Eve is true, but you have to consider the audience. This story was not designed for the modern thinker, but for thousands of years of people that would not comprehend anything more. It does not dismiss the theory of evolution it instead presents the facts in way for people to understand.

                                                                                            I know …I know. I am a disgrace to my faith

                                                                                            I think secular thought should be the norm for public school anyway. If you want your children to know more, it is your responsibility to teach them. My children are anything, but indoctrinated. No public school should suppress free thought. On the other hand, it is the responsibility of the parent to safeguard their children from harmful ideals and state sponsored indoctrination.

                                                                                            This is why I support the privatization of public schools.

                                                                                            • 1 vote
                                                                                            #26.3 - Mon Jun 9, 2008 6:42 PM EDT
                                                                                            Jack Huang

                                                                                            I tend to think that the truth of human origin lies somewhere between the Garden of Eden and the theory of evolution.

                                                                                            Can you elaborate a bit more on that?

                                                                                            Why is it so sacrilegious from a Christian standpoint?

                                                                                            Well, that depends on the particular Christian viewpoint. The Pope, for example, has no problem with evolution.

                                                                                            It does not dismiss the theory of evolution it instead presents the facts in way for people to understand.

                                                                                            Honestly, I can't see how that is. The whole "seven days" thing, where all creatures are created according to purpose (livestock for the purpose of husbandry, for example), not to mention the creation of Eve from Adam's rib, rather go against evolution.

                                                                                            No public school should suppress free thought.

                                                                                            Indeed. However, it is important to note that this does not mean there should be no restrictions on what enters school curricula.

                                                                                            • 4 votes
                                                                                            #26.4 - Mon Jun 9, 2008 6:54 PM EDT
                                                                                            Kathy Gill

                                                                                            28.3

                                                                                            I think secular thought should be the norm for public school anyway. If you want your children to know more, it is your responsibility to teach them. My children are anything, but indoctrinated. No public school should suppress free thought. On the other hand, it is the responsibility of the parent to safeguard their children from harmful ideals and state sponsored indoctrination.

                                                                                            This is why I support the privatization of public schools.

                                                                                            If it's up to the parent to instill a moral code, why argue for private schools?

                                                                                            We're all indoctrinated -- the school system is designed to manufacture "employees" ... it would be lovely if, instead, students first learned about their responsibilities as a citizen in a democracy ... and then how to write (I teach college students, I know first hand how this "skill" is neglected) ... and then how to craft a life-long learning habit.

                                                                                            Ethics? yes. Comparative religion? yes. Economics? absolutely. Evolution? yes, as it fits into biology and science classes.

                                                                                            • 1 vote
                                                                                            #26.5 - Sun Jun 15, 2008 7:50 AM EDT
                                                                                            Reply
                                                                                            Arbitrary Intelligence

                                                                                            Honestly, I can't see how that is. The whole "seven days" thing, where all creatures are created according to purpose (livestock for the purpose of husbandry, for example), not to mention the creation of Eve from Adam's rib, rather go against evolution.

                                                                                            Jack, Your looking at it as if the story of Adam and Eve was meant to be taken literally. These stories were ways to explain things so that 5000 B.C. humans could understand. Not to mention that they were passed down verbally for hundreds of years before there were ever written. Perhaps Adam's rib is alluding to some DNA thing way over my head. Perhaps I am a loon and there is no God. Only time will tell.

                                                                                            Well, ...I am a loon, but that is beside the point.

                                                                                            Indeed. However, it is important to note that this does not mean there should be no restrictions on what enters school curricula.

                                                                                            Agreed.

                                                                                            Ooops! I meant to hit reply.

                                                                                              Reply#27 - Mon Jun 9, 2008 8:01 PM EDT
                                                                                              Jack Huang

                                                                                              Jack, Your looking at it as if the story of Adam and Eve was meant to be taken literally. These stories were ways to explain things so that 5000 B.C. humans could understand. Not to mention that they were passed down verbally for hundreds of years before there were ever written. Perhaps Adam's rib is alluding to some DNA thing way over my head.

                                                                                              Fair enough. Perhaps there is metaphorical credibility to the Adam & Eve story. However, I imagine it'd have to be quite a metaphor. :-p

                                                                                              Ooops! I meant to hit reply.

                                                                                              Heh, no problem. At least you know the button exists, which is a common newbie oversight.

                                                                                              • 2 votes
                                                                                              #27.1 - Mon Jun 9, 2008 11:46 PM EDT
                                                                                              Ryan Booker

                                                                                              While I'm glad you don't take it literally, I have a question or two:

                                                                                              Do you take any of the Bible literally or do you treat it ALL as metaphor?

                                                                                              On what grounds do you decide what is/isn't metaphor?

                                                                                              • 1 vote
                                                                                              #27.2 - Wed Jun 11, 2008 6:58 AM EDT
                                                                                              Reply
                                                                                              Issywise

                                                                                              I don't know where this would fit into all this above, but the distinction between "proven" and "theory" is a vitally important one. The usage "theory" admits itself to be an open-ended conjecture, always subject to modification and revision based on new observations of nature. The usage "proven" suggest a finality that science can never support. Much to his later chagrin, the young physicist Ernest Rutherford once predicted that all the laws governing the science of physics would be discovered and the subject exhausted within a couple decades. That was before Einstein and his won work in particle physics which opened up new worlds of inquiry.

                                                                                              The reason Rutherford was so complacent so early was orthodoxies--time space was uniform and unchanging, the make up of matter was thought to be nearing its full explanation. So too were the Aristotelians and Ptolemaics with their geocentrism. In both cases, what was "proven" was overthrown in ways those who embraced the orthodoxies could not have imagined. It is possible that the very fixity with which the orthodoxies were held prevented further progress.

                                                                                              Gravity is a force that Newton described but did not explain. The word also indeed refer to a natural force, acting independent of the existence of humankind. But, in its scientific use, gravity is a theory--used by scientists to describe its functioning of the force with precision. Theories are open-ended and conditional--necessarily so because of the possibility of future observations that cannot be fitted into the theory. Just such observations may already be present--particles that pass through space without any interaction with gravity. Surely, a full understanding of gravity would require accomodating observation of these particles into any theory of gravity.

                                                                                              I dislike the the word "proof" because it speaks of too much finality: As too with the words "laws of science." I appreciate that when "gravity" is used to refer to the existence of an incontestable natural phenomena, in the normal flow of human events, it does no harm. But it misleads as to the nature of science itself. Science is both observations of natural phenomena and drawing inferences therefrom. Science must therefore always be conditional--always open to revision of inferences and never complacent with orthodoxies.

                                                                                              This is what makes science different from faith as a matter of kind. Much public disputation could be rectified if the two kinds were held apart and understood as different. Those at the scientific end of things feed the frenzy of those at the other end, by loose lips.

                                                                                              • 3 votes
                                                                                              Reply#28 - Tue Jun 10, 2008 8:24 AM EDT
                                                                                              Adam Kemp

                                                                                              Thank you. It's clear that you understood the article completely. That's a nice change from the discussion above. :)

                                                                                              • 2 votes
                                                                                              #28.1 - Tue Jun 10, 2008 10:57 AM EDT
                                                                                              Issywise

                                                                                              I found the discussion above disquieting. The best hope for quelling the fundamentalist insurrection against science teaching is by teaching what science really is--how inherently unrelated it is to belief. But, when educated and otherwise erudite persons go around "believing" in science, there is no hope:
                                                                                              if science is just another belief, why not just select a different belief and run with it?

                                                                                                #28.2 - Wed Jun 11, 2008 7:08 AM EDT
                                                                                                Adam Kemp

                                                                                                I don't know who you're talking about. I certainly don't think of science in terms of "belief", so if I gave if that impression then I must have been unclear.

                                                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                                                #28.3 - Wed Jun 11, 2008 10:59 AM EDT
                                                                                                Issywise

                                                                                                Certainly not you. I was concerned that some of the above posts elevate the "certainty" obtainable through science into a "proof" that is nothing less than belief itself. As I understood your purpose, it was to instruct exactly against that excess and perspective.

                                                                                                Such certainty obstructs scientific progress from within and justifies faith-based attacks from outside.

                                                                                                I commend your effort and am disappointed that it wasn't received by some of the posters above with more open-mindedness. Perhaps, we're too ready to be contentious with on another to really listen. I know I sometimes am and have to apologize for it more than once.

                                                                                                Your effort was commendable: I hope it did more good than is apparent so far.

                                                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                                                #28.4 - Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:10 AM EDT
                                                                                                Kathy Gill

                                                                                                Issywise, nicely written.

                                                                                                Adam, what gave this old piece new life?!?

                                                                                                  #28.5 - Sun Jun 15, 2008 7:51 AM EDT
                                                                                                  Adam Kemp

                                                                                                  I link to it whenever I see people misunderstanding how science works.

                                                                                                    #28.6 - Sun Jun 15, 2008 11:59 AM EDT
                                                                                                    Kathy Gill

                                                                                                    Ah! Thanks!

                                                                                                      #28.7 - Tue Jun 17, 2008 4:11 PM EDT
                                                                                                      Reply
                                                                                                      Anita's Angle

                                                                                                      Ok, Adam. Point taken - we can only deduce something that is fact if all can be tested. All things cannot be tested , therefore, we cannot state a FACT.

                                                                                                      So instead, I choose to state my religious beliefs as 'facts' until someone shows me it did not happen. How's that? LOL!

                                                                                                        Reply#29 - Mon Dec 8, 2008 4:06 PM EST
                                                                                                        Adam Kemp

                                                                                                        Your beliefs are untestable, and therefore not scientific. Any claim which is untestable is useless. It doesn't tell you anything because you can't possibly know whether it's true or not.

                                                                                                        • 2 votes
                                                                                                        #29.1 - Mon Dec 8, 2008 4:59 PM EST
                                                                                                        Reply
                                                                                                        Dan Hallo, aka, Zoilus

                                                                                                        I studied "Music Theory" in grade school. Has Music been proved yet?

                                                                                                        Trying to "Prove" a "faith" is what turned the belief in the Greek, Roman, and Norse Gods into myths.

                                                                                                        This is how Christianity will end up being taught in schools as well, if it fails to adapt to the intellectual advances of man, rather then trying to discredit science. Science is not the enemy of the Church. The Church is it's own worst enemy. 

                                                                                                        This is why I am no longer a Christian. The Church convinced me.  The more they try to prove something that is based on faith, and needs no proof, the more they show it is not real.

                                                                                                        That they don't understand this will be the end of Islam and Christianity.

                                                                                                        • 1 vote
                                                                                                        Reply#30 - Mon Dec 8, 2008 4:30 PM EST
                                                                                                        tedgarcia

                                                                                                        Dan Hallo  said this, """Trying to "Prove" a "faith" is what turned the belief in the Greek, Roman, and Norse Gods into myths."""

                                                                                                        mr.Hallo,  tell me who tried to prove "faith" and by what means. How could you prove faith , when faith is a belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence?

                                                                                                        You said, """This is how Christianity will end up being taught in schools as well, if it fails to adapt to the intellectual advances of man, rather then trying to discredit science. Science is not the enemy of the Church. The Church is it's own worst enemy"""

                                                                                                        Your above statement is in coherent.  Read again. Why do you think science is the enemy of the church? Why is the church is its own enemy? Please explain, then we could talk.

                                                                                                        In what  did the church convinced you about what? What did they try to prove based on faith?  I'll you right now, you have this mistaken notion that the church is proving something based on faith.  As I said, faith ccould not be proven, it could only be explained, and it's up to you to decide to believe or not believe.

                                                                                                          #30.1 - Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:48 AM EST
                                                                                                          Adam Kemp

                                                                                                          Please, this article is about science, not religion. Don't get off topic.

                                                                                                            #30.2 - Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:39 PM EST
                                                                                                            Reply
                                                                                                            tedgarcia

                                                                                                            Adam Kemp - <<<. You cannot prove that the next rock you drop will fall as well. That is impossible. >>>

                                                                                                            This is just plain stupid statement.  How could you possibly prove something you have not yet done?  Mr. Kemp, could you explain why you make such statement?   

                                                                                                            At any rate mr. Kemp, if you have any doubt  about gravity, would you be willing to stand five feet directly below someone who would drop a rock? What more proof are you looking for to admit that gravity is not "just a theory", but a fact.  I know we can't agree with each other because you are a theorist and I'm a realist/pragmatist.  You, being a theorist, I wonder if you are scared that tomorrow you will start floating, that gravity will be disproved. 

                                                                                                              Reply#31 - Sun Jan 11, 2009 8:58 PM EST
                                                                                                              Adam Kemp

                                                                                                              This is just plain stupid statement.  How could you possibly prove something you have not yet done?  Mr. Kemp, could you explain why you make such statement?  

                                                                                                              I say it precisely because it is impossible, which is why the theory of gravity remains an unproved theory. It's a very strong theory, strong enough for me to call it a fact, but it is a theory nonetheless. I'm glad you see how ridiculous it is to say that you can prove something in the future, so now you should agree with me that it's ridiculous to say that anyone has proven gravity. After all, if we had proven gravity then we could say with absolute certainty that the next rock would fall.

                                                                                                              Please, stop trying to make it sound like I actually disbelieve in gravity. That is a gross misunderstanding of my point. I do believe in gravity, but that doesn't mean I have proven it to be true. Science doesn't work in absolutes like that.

                                                                                                              If you insist on hypothetic tests of faith, though, would you be willing to abandon medicine based on evolutionary theory, such as the newer penicillin shots which account for the ever-evolving resistant bacteria? How much do you trust your disbelief in the theory of evolution?

                                                                                                              • 1 vote
                                                                                                              #31.1 - Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:44 PM EST
                                                                                                              tedgarcia

                                                                                                              Adam Kemp you said, "I say it precisely because it is impossible,  - - - -"

                                                                                                              So, why do you talk about something that is impossible? Isn't it kinda dumb to do that? Now, you are really proving you statement" I'm perfectly capable of thinking, and that's my problem".  Yes, you got a problem. That's why sometimes you make incoherent statements.  Yes, I could see how ridiculous your statement is.

                                                                                                              Science! science! You are so engrossed in your knowledge of science that you lost your sense of reality. Get real, mr. AK.  You want absolute certainty, that's almost like asking for the impossible.  Now,  you know what people will say  when you ask for the impossible?  NUTS!!!!!! 

                                                                                                              My faith overides my confidence in the theory of evolution, but not in medicine.  I believe in the Intelligent Design, not the Theory of evolution.  But that's another talking point. Have a nice day!!!

                                                                                                                #31.2 - Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:44 AM EST
                                                                                                                Adam Kemp

                                                                                                                So, why do you talk about something that is impossible?

                                                                                                                Because when you say "gravity is proved" then you imply that it is possible, which is clearly not true.

                                                                                                                You want absolute certainty, that's almost like asking for the impossible.

                                                                                                                My whole point is to explain why absolute certainty is impossible in science, and your whole argument has basically been the opposite. So why are you acting now as if you have agreed all along? You kept telling me that gravity is proven true, which implies absolute knowledge, and here you are saying absolute knowledge is impossible. Exactly. So you should understand now why I say that gravity is "just a theory". Beucase it is just a theory. We will never know with absolute certainty whether we are right about gravity. That's what makes it a theory.

                                                                                                                My faith overides my confidence in the theory of evolution, but not in medicine.

                                                                                                                Much of medicine is based on evolutionary theory, so your confidence in medicine is misplaced if you have no confidence in evolutionary theory. That's like saying you trust airplanes but you don't trust the physics of aerodynamics. You can't have one without the other.

                                                                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                                                                #31.3 - Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:52 PM EST
                                                                                                                Reply
                                                                                                                Rod-1103621Deleted
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